Linked by Eugenia Loli on Mon 7th Aug 2006 20:42 UTC
Apple Jobs introduced today Mac OS X Leopard, built-to-order Xeon-based Mac Pros and XServes. We attended the keynote and we just posted some pictures below. We loved these new Mac beasts, plus Time Machine looked really cool. The rest of the OSX features were mostly evolutionary.
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Spaces
by MikeGA on Mon 7th Aug 2006 20:51 UTC
MikeGA
Member since:
2005-07-22

I see your point about the um, "misrepresentation" of Spaces.

To describe it as "new," really is quite silly since virtual desktops have been around for a long time on many OS's. However, knowing Apple, it will be done in a pretty cool and possibly "new" way.

It's not quite the same thing as the way Apple's poking fun at Microsoft though. They're pointing out how Microsoft is adding features that have been added recently to OS X.

Spaces on the other hand is adding a feature to OS X that has been around for a long time on many OS's.

Edited 2006-08-07 20:52

Reply Score: 1

RE: Spaces
by Eugenia on Mon 7th Aug 2006 20:54 UTC in reply to "Spaces"
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

Spaces works pretty much the same way as it works with that freeware utility that's been around. And the ability to move apps from one space to another, that exists on Linux and on BeOS too.

And btw, I don't agree that there is any reason to poke fun to competitors. Everyone is copying everyone else in the industry not because they are photocopiers but because that's how the industry works. I have explained this point many times in the past, I won't get into this again. Creating similar things in technology is _normal_.

Edited 2006-08-07 20:55

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Spaces
by Kroc on Mon 7th Aug 2006 20:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Spaces"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

All UI is evolutionary.
Did IE copy the back button off of Netscape? Or more acurately, did Netscape copy the back button off of Moasic, which became IE. Oh the paradox.

Edited 2006-08-07 21:00

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Spaces
by binarycrusader on Mon 7th Aug 2006 21:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Spaces"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

Spaces works pretty much the same way as it works with that freeware utility that's been around. And the ability to move apps from one space to another, that exists on Linux and on BeOS too.

Ah, but this is the first time that such functionality has been integrated into a mainstream commercial desktop platform! So, it is "new" to the market from any sort of operating systems sales perspective. And for the record, I don't own any Apple products or stock ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Spaces
by Eugenia on Mon 7th Aug 2006 21:36 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Spaces"
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

I use virtual desktops on OSX for years now. And I used them on BeOS and X11 too. Mainstream or not, sales perspective or not, the feature has already been used by millions. It is not truly "new" as Apple tried to sale it as. But yes, I do like seeing it on OSX. It means that each time I install OSX or create a new user account I don't have to setup that freeware utility anymore.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Spaces
by binarycrusader on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Spaces"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

I use virtual desktops on OSX for years now. And I used them on BeOS and X11 too. Mainstream or not, sales perspective or not, the feature has already been used by millions. It is not truly "new" as Apple tried to sale it as. But yes, I do like seeing it on OSX. It means that each time I install OSX or create a new user account I don't have to setup that freeware utility anymore.

Hence why I qualified my post, and also why I said *integrated*. Just because "millions" (which is a hard figure to prove) have already used this functionality does not mean that it doesn't qualify as "new" in some sense. "New" as in "no one has done this before"? Certainly not! I only claimed that it was new as an integrated part of a commercial mainstream desktop, which Apple is completely right to claim that (if that's what they are claiming).

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Spaces
by subterrific on Mon 7th Aug 2006 23:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Spaces"
subterrific Member since:
2005-07-10

Virtual desktops has been an integrated part of KDE and GNOME for years. Both are used for commercial desktops which millions of people use.

From what we've seen so far of Spaces, it is nothing new. Apple is copying the industry and then making fun of others for "copying" them. Their behavior is really lame.

Edited 2006-08-07 23:22

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: Spaces
by Nelson on Mon 7th Aug 2006 23:22 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Spaces"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I agree, they need to drop the whole "I need to find ways to give my OS buzz so lets claim you copied me" act. It's really irritating especially when they go and do the exact same thing.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Spaces
by binarycrusader on Mon 7th Aug 2006 23:31 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Spaces"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

Virtual desktops has been an integrated part of KDE and GNOME for years. Both are used for commercial desktops which millions of people use.

Hence why I said mainstream commercial desktop. Also, we have no hard proof that "millions" of people are using commercial KDE/GNOME desktops ;) I say this as a Linux (since 1994) and Solaris user.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Spaces
by Eugenia on Mon 7th Aug 2006 23:33 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Spaces"
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

Desktop Linux has about 2% of market share worldwide. That's about 15 million users right there. And then there are the on-off users. Bottomline, it is not a brand new feature in its heart. Why do we still debate about this?

Edited 2006-08-07 23:37

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Spaces
by Manik on Tue 8th Aug 2006 13:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Spaces"
Manik Member since:
2005-07-06

Did they pretend to have invented it ? Or that no one had ever seen that before ? Or did they just say "we have that new feature" ?

I have very often seen in software release notes :
NEW :
Added support for Bligtz 0.0.2
Added support fot Schtrumpflit 2.4
Added Glumpflock functionnality (at last)
etc.

when other software already have all that. It doesn't make it less new in the software under consideration.
(and no, you won't find Bligtz, Schtrumpflit or Glumpflock anywhere)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Spaces
by n4cer on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Spaces"
n4cer Member since:
2005-07-06

Ah, but this is the first time that such functionality has been integrated into a mainstream commercial desktop platform! So, it is "new" to the market from any sort of operating systems sales perspective. And for the record, I don't own any Apple products or stock ;)

Define integrated. The APIs have shipped in Windows for years. Exposed to the end-user by default, yes, integrated, no.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Spaces
by SK8T on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:46 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Spaces"
SK8T Member since:
2006-06-01

Spaces is not the same like virtual desktops in Linux!

It's pretty similar but not the same! I had never the possibility to sort my virtual desktops by drag'n'dorp them around. Or to see all 4 desktops at the same time.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Spaces
by Eugenia on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:55 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Spaces"
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

Look. It is never the same. Implementation details differ on all systems. But the MAIN principle of the app is the exact same one: virtual desktops.

As for dragging and dropping apps from one desktop to another was possible in the same way on BeOS (just not as flashy), and on the latest incarnations of some X11 DEs/WMs (not all). Re-arranging desktops, that's new AFAIK. But it's hardly a mainstream feature that's going to be used all the time. People usually don't do that. They simply assign functions to each desktop (e.g. mail, browsing etc) and they stay put with it because they learn it that way.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Spaces
by binarycrusader on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:58 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Spaces"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

Look. It is never the same. Implementation details differ on all systems. But the MAIN principle of the app is the exact same one: virtual desktops.

That I can agree with. I remember using this functionality on the first desktop (known) to implement it. Amiga OS.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Spaces
by Wrawrat on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Spaces"
Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

So what. The basic concept is still the same.

Spaces are a nice evolution of the virtual desktop concept, but they are not revolutionary like Apple claims.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Spaces
by binarycrusader on Mon 7th Aug 2006 23:04 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Spaces"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

So what. The basic concept is still the same.

Spaces are a nice evolution of the virtual desktop concept, but they are not revolutionary like Apple claims.


Actually, Apple is right. One of the dictionary definitions for "revolutionary" is:

markedly new or introducing radical change

For Mac OS X or for any mainstream commercial desktop, this is a "radical change." Something doesn't have to be "markedly new" to be revolutionary. So, this is "revolutionary," at the very minimum, in the context of OS X since it is a "radical change" to the operating system as shipped by Apple.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Spaces
by Wrawrat on Mon 7th Aug 2006 23:27 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Spaces"
Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

Something doesn't have to be "markedly new" to be revolutionary. So, this is "revolutionary," at the very minimum, in the context of OS X since it is a "radical change" to the operating system as shipped by Apple.

Using your criteras, MS Vista must be a real revolución...

You know, that wouldn't be bad if they weren't making fun of "photocopiers". They do the same, but no, it's revolutionary!

Love the OS, hate the PR & marketing dept.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Spaces
by Don Roritor on Tue 8th Aug 2006 02:30 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Spaces"
Don Roritor Member since:
2005-07-06

In the keynote I only heard him say it was new to OS X. Of course he speaks ambiguously, but I didn't hear the word revolutionary. Did he say that?

I love how people hang on these words and bicker about it - it's marketing people. A new razor with an extra blade is called revolutionary by the company that makes it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Spaces
by binarycrusader on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Spaces"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

Define integrated. The APIs have shipped in Windows for years. Exposed to the end-user by default, yes, integrated, no.

Now who's splitting hairs? ;)

I would define integrated as useable "out-of-the-box" by the enduser without any extra work on their part. A random API library provided by a company doesn't count as an integrated desktop feature.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Spaces
by ormandj on Tue 8th Aug 2006 01:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Spaces"
ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

"And btw, I don't agree that there is any reason to poke fun to competitors."

I really don't understand this sentiment. I actually see it all over. All these morality-based assumptions for business.

Face it, businesses are designed to make money. A competitor is by definition a threat to a business's money making ability.

Why should one business NOT be able to poke fun of another? It's not "nice"? It's not "nice" for a business to charge more than what it requires to make a product/provide a service either. That is a business's ENTIRE point, however.

It's actually quite funny to see companies jabbing each other in the eye from time to time. It's gotten so dull lately with these huge oligopolies. All the businesses in almost every industry are in cahoots, they never fight/make fun of/etc each other, they just gouge, all together at once! It's funny how Shell, Texaco, Chevron, Mobile, and most of the other gas companies charge the same, almost to the penny, for a gallon of gas even though you *know* that they all have different operating costs. It's VERY obviously price fixing, and it's because the companies don't compete with each other anymore. There is no poking fun of each other, undercutting ech other, etc. They all just attend secret meetings to discuss the next price hike, so that it's uniform and people don't have a choice. Maybe you blame this on oil prices - why is Costco's gas SO much cheaper then? Yeah, gasoline is pretty expensive nowadays, but the price you pay at most pumps is ARTIFICALLY INFLATED due to lack of competition.

Same for your phone service. Why does ONE landline here in Hawaii, cost me 30-someodd bucks a month with NO features, no long distance, no caller id, etc. About 5-10$ is tax, so I'm paying 20$ (or was when I had one) a month for a line that's been in the ground since the 50s, when this home was built. It makes no sense, but there is NO COMPETITION. Why does my business line with NO FEATURES, same as my home line, cost me 80$ a month?? It's the SAME SERVICE. I just pay 3x more for it because it's paid with a business account. Again, NO COMPETITION.

So, in summary, I *like* eye poking, fun-making, etc. The problem is there isn't enough of it anymore, and people get all touchy feely when their beloved (who are we kidding, does anybody love MS anymore??) companies get made fun of by the big ole' mean bully companies. Give me a break!

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Spaces
by Tuishimi on Tue 8th Aug 2006 01:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Spaces"
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

"It's gotten so dull lately with these huge oligopolies"

Holy market share, batman!

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Spaces
by Tuishimi on Tue 8th Aug 2006 01:47 UTC in reply to "RE: Spaces"
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

There really is nothing "new" in the OS world. :/

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Spaces
by mr_manny on Tue 8th Aug 2006 05:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Spaces"
mr_manny Member since:
2006-02-05
RE[2]: Spaces
by StephenBeDoper on Tue 8th Aug 2006 04:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Spaces"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

And btw, I don't agree that there is any reason to poke fun to competitors.

I don't think that sort hyperbole (from Apple) is really designed to appeal to the intellects of geeks, but rather to the hearts-n-minds of the "faithful." A lot of non-technical Mac users eat that stuff up (and have a habit of parrotting it online). Nothing quite says "A teacher who wants to be hip, cool, and 'with-it'" like a middle school art classroom plastered with "Think Different" posters.

A legion of people who have warm-fuzzies about their Macs - and are ready to tell the world! - are probably more effective than ad campaigns that focus solely on the practical merits of the product. And I'm certain they're more effective than paid guerrilla advertising.

In some ways, it seems that a large portion of the Mac userbase act as volunteer guerrilla advertisers for Apple. Of course, there's the argument that rabid Apple evangelists (for instance, do a search for "Derek Currie" on google groups) drive away more than they convert, but that's another discussion.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Spaces
by alcibiades on Tue 8th Aug 2006 08:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Spaces"
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

You must be right: its designed to appeal to the faithful. It has a complex function.

First, it gives the faithful the feeling of being different. Second, it provokes hostility on the part of the outsiders. Third, this hostility in turn reinforces the committment of the faithful.

Its a marketing tactic you only employ if determined to stay in a niche, and determined to hang on to your converts by fostering a sense of being a beleagered and misunderstood minority.

Its profoundly unattractive to anyone not on the inside, but then, its meant to be, couldn't work otherwise.

Edited 2006-08-08 08:19

Reply Score: 4

RE: Spaces
by halfmanhalfamazing on Tue 8th Aug 2006 02:25 UTC in reply to "Spaces"
halfmanhalfamazing Member since:
2005-07-23

---------However, knowing Apple, it will be done in a pretty cool and possibly "new" way.----------

While I agree with you that Apple might come up with a better way than say... the KDE way.

But Apple isn't gonna top multiple desktops as it's presented by XGL.

Apple's been the defacto innovator in computers for many years now(theres exceptions to that rule) but now that's changing. Linux and linux based technologies are already starting to show their clear leadership ways.

Reply Score: 1

Spaces=virtual desktops?
by Punktyras on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:13 UTC
Punktyras
Member since:
2006-01-07

Are they the same? I've always took as a granted such a nice feature is implemented at least on Macs. But since even Linux has it nobody talks about it.
Silly me...

Reply Score: 1

RE
by Kroc on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:44 UTC
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

OSX is becoming more and more gimmicky. These features are good, well implemented, and useful, but things are starting to borderline tacky.

If they announced massive replumbing, leading to more speed increases, and F'dTFF, then I'd buy it straight away, fancy time travelling effects or not.

Reply Score: 1

RE
by digitaldisaster on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:52 UTC in reply to "RE"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

I'm waiting for the forward time traveling in 10.5.1 where you can save ourself huge amounts of effort by simply jumping forward in time to when you've finished that huge document you've been working on (coursework/thesis/business plan/review/keynote etc.) or simply get next weeks lottery numbers

Reply Score: 3

RE
by Tuishimi on Tue 8th Aug 2006 01:53 UTC in reply to "RE"
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

That will be "Time Machine 2.0"...

Reply Score: 1

RE
by ValiantSoul on Tue 8th Aug 2006 05:59 UTC in reply to "RE"
ValiantSoul Member since:
2005-07-20

Or jump ahead to grab the next release of OS X ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE
by digitaldisaster on Tue 8th Aug 2006 12:23 UTC in reply to "RE"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

no point, as Apple will already have the Time Machine 2.0 feature before it is released they will have already got all of the updates from the future and so OS X will become perfect and development will cease

Reply Score: 1

Stream
by dheghnom on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:51 UTC
dheghnom
Member since:
2006-07-06

Anyone had success viewing the stream under linux? If so, please tell me how.

Kenneth

Reply Score: 1

RE: Stream
by digitaldisaster on Mon 7th Aug 2006 22:53 UTC in reply to "Stream"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

I keep getting server busy errors on OS X so that could be the cause of any probs. you're having

Reply Score: 1

Leopard Server
by dheghnom on Mon 7th Aug 2006 23:11 UTC
dheghnom
Member since:
2006-07-06

The Leopard Server sites are now up as well!

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/

Reply Score: 1

Objective-C
by dheghnom on Mon 7th Aug 2006 23:12 UTC
dheghnom
Member since:
2006-07-06

So objective-C got garbage collection?

"Objective-C 2.0

So compelling, Apple wrote Xcode 3.0 itself in it. Enjoy modern garbage collection, ..."

Reply Score: 1

RE: Objective-C
by butters on Tue 8th Aug 2006 00:40 UTC in reply to "Objective-C"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Whenever I reflect on the complexity of C++, I remind myself that at least the syntax isn't as bad as Objective C. I hope that one day application developers will have a lightweight managed language with garbage collection, expressive semantics, natural syntax, and an optimizing JIT. In this sense I find Python very compelling, especially since it now has a dynamic JIT (for optimizing a dynamic language):

http://psyco.sourceforge.net/introduction.html

I guess the next step would be an X11 desktop and development platform written in Python. It could just as well be for Quartz, but Apple would never do that, and they don't dictate industry-wide trends in application development anyway.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Objective-C
by Tuishimi on Tue 8th Aug 2006 01:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Objective-C"
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

Io is a nice language on the rise...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Objective-C
by kaiwai on Tue 8th Aug 2006 06:25 UTC in reply to "Objective-C"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

yeap, which would fall into line of their employment of the guy who developed LLVM; apparently he has been there since the around the second half of 2005; so it'll be integrating GCC and LLVM together, I'd say that they've only done Objective-C so far, but I wouldn't be surprised to see C++ supported as well.

Reply Score: 1

Well
by ronaldst on Tue 8th Aug 2006 00:26 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

Keynote is up.
http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/aug_2006/event/index.html

Is it just me or he's lost some weight?

EDIT: trying to find a DL URL...

Edited 2006-08-08 00:26

Reply Score: 1

RE: Well
by Eugenia on Tue 8th Aug 2006 00:33 UTC in reply to "Well"
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

He's lost lots of weight. I blogged about it too.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Well
by ronaldst on Tue 8th Aug 2006 00:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Well"
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

And his weight loss doesn’t look good. He now really looks healthy like a vegetarian or a smoker. Looks very weak. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Well
by kaiwai on Tue 8th Aug 2006 06:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Well"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Meh, maybe he's gone for that freaky alternative diet they use on that Japanese Island where they only eat till they're 80% full, apparently they live an extra couple of years; side not, I'd rather live it up, and die two years early, than being a misserable old bastard and gaining an extra 4 years.

Oh, as for that beard; what is it with guys who get in the media spotlight, going for this 'old grogy bastard' look with the out of control, messy beard; are they trying to makeselves look educated, with the glasses?!

Reply Score: 1

v My regular rants...
by judgen on Tue 8th Aug 2006 00:48 UTC
RE: My regular rants...
by Ithamar on Tue 8th Aug 2006 01:57 UTC in reply to "My regular rants..."
Ithamar Member since:
2006-03-20

Hmmm I'm still not sure it was JLG's 'vision' that made BeOS the OS it was, or simply the insights of the individual developers that worked at Be, Inc....

Maybe Eugenia would care to comment on that? ;)

Reply Score: 1

Simply pathetic!
by Quoth_the_Raven on Tue 8th Aug 2006 01:08 UTC
Quoth_the_Raven
Member since:
2005-11-15

Give it a rest already! I don't know how many times I've seen posts about users wishing Mac OS X had virtual desktops. Now that Apple's added them to OS X, people still find something to bitch about. Pathetic!

So what if they're calling it "new" or "revolutionary"? That's marketing, folks. And you know, without doubt, that Apple's implementation is going to blow everybody else's away!!!

Reply Score: 1

Re: My regular rants...
by hypnosys on Tue 8th Aug 2006 01:29 UTC
hypnosys
Member since:
2006-08-08

So you are saying Jean Louis Gasse should have been CEO of Apple and bankrupt Apple the way he bankrupt Be Inc. right ?
Now as far as to how Apple has revolutionized the operating systems, just take a look at Tiger. Tiger is available now and works pretty well. Vista its still in development with uncertain future release. As Steve Jobs put said "money can not buy everything". After five billions of spending in R&D Microsoft still can not ship a final version of its new operating system...And these are just the facts.

--hypnosys

Reply Score: 1

RE: My regular rants...
by hypnosys on Tue 8th Aug 2006 02:15 UTC
hypnosys
Member since:
2006-08-08

BeOS was great operating system for its time, however it died when it was sold to Palm. Yes there are attempts to revive it but they are nowhere near complete. Unlike the NeXT operating system which was also great for its time and now as Mac OS X is even more great and with features far ahead of its competitors. So in terms of what is available Steve Jobs vision looks like its working, producing more Macintosh market share and money for the company and Jean Louis Gasse vision failed (in terms of what is currently available) and ended up collecting dust in some Palm office closet.

Reply Score: 1

Dtrace
by bservies on Tue 8th Aug 2006 03:10 UTC
bservies
Member since:
2006-05-27

According to the Xcode 3 page they have integrated OpenSolaris Dtrace into Leopard, too. I wonder if that is a side-effect of updating their FreeBSD substrate, or if they did their own port?

Reply Score: 2

After Reality Distortion recovery
by ronaldst on Tue 8th Aug 2006 06:36 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

There is still an obvious gap in the Apple PC line up. Where is the affordable Apple PC like Dell has with it's Dimension 5150 ($789 CAD)? That would be in a "decent" pricing range around the 1200$.

Reply Score: 1

Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

I guess that'd be the iMac Line?

Reply Score: 1

ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

Nope. I don't want a "Cube" system. Can't upgrade the video card when needed.

Reply Score: 1