Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 8th Dec 2006 00:24 UTC
Microsoft The holiday season hasn't gone exactly as Microsoft had hoped and Ballmer sits down with CNET News.com to discuss life after Vista, battling the iPod, and the rising importance of mobile devices.
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Development model
by DigitalAxis on Fri 8th Dec 2006 00:52 UTC
DigitalAxis
Member since:
2005-08-28

I found it somewhat interesting that Ballmer mentions that they're having to decide how many people are going to work on the next version of Windows, and where they're going to work... that, plus the 'more releases on shorter timescales' bit seems to confirm what I was reading here from time to time about Microsoft changing their development model after the problem they had getting Vista working and finished.

Reply Score: 3

He said that word again
by SlackerJack on Fri 8th Dec 2006 01:31 UTC
SlackerJack
Member since:
2005-11-12

"innovation", lets hope they can come up with some new ideas because Vista lacks innovation.

I guess Steve's version of innovation is what other OS's have had for years.

Reply Score: 5

RE: He said that word again
by helf on Fri 8th Dec 2006 04:20 UTC in reply to "He said that word again"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

You can say that about any current OS, because, if you really try, you can claim mainframes had 'these features' in the 60s... because a lot of the current buzzwords were in use then. Like hardware virtualization etc...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: He said that word again
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 12:17 UTC in reply to "RE: He said that word again"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Yes, but how many other vendors claim that their new stuff is "innovation"?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: He said that word again
by Rayz on Fri 8th Dec 2006 13:36 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He said that word again"
Rayz Member since:
2006-06-24

Er ... Apple?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: He said that word again
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 14:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He said that word again"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

And how many times have you heard me defend overpriced-Apple?

That would be zero, I think.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: He said that word again
by proforma on Fri 8th Dec 2006 04:49 UTC in reply to "He said that word again"
RE[2]: He said that word again
by hal2k1 on Fri 8th Dec 2006 05:43 UTC in reply to "RE: He said that word again"
hal2k1 Member since:
2005-11-11

//yeah and Linux still doesn't have half of the features as Vista.//

You may have a point.

Linux misses out on DRM, WGA, product keys, license keys, time-limited software, activation, EULAs, most of the security holes, proprietary lock-in and a whole raft of malware.

//Well, maybe in 2012 they will finally catch up.//

I sincerely hope not.

Edited 2006-12-08 05:46

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: He said that word again
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 05:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He said that word again"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

Linux misses out on DRM, WGA, product keys, license keys, time-limited software, activation, EULAs, most of the security holes ...

I think open source has its share of security holes. Certainly Firefox does.

DRM is sort of security blanket for companies who want to let you download movies like the XBOX 360 allows now.

But I think the person was talking about some of these features:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_Vista

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: He said that word again
by hal2k1 on Fri 8th Dec 2006 05:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He said that word again"
hal2k1 Member since:
2005-11-11

//DRM is sort of security blanket for companies who want to let you download movies like the XBOX 360 allows now. //

No. DRM is a whole lot of big corporations trying to dictate what you can and cannot do with your own machine. hen the talk of "Digital Rights" ... they don't mean your rights.

It underlies the whole point of you not owning the software, and therefore not really owning your own machine. Very unappealing.

//Web content blocking.
File downloads may also be disabled.
Time limitations on when the account may be used
Restrictions on what kind of games may be played.//

Another long list of "you may not do".

Lots of things Vista doesn't do here, aren't there?

//Activity reports to monitor what was done under Parental Controls
Ability to log actions such as Instant Messaging conversations //

My oh my, how very Big-Brother-like.

I think the kids are probably just going to plug in a Linux Live CD and be done with all that nonsense.

Edited 2006-12-08 05:58

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: He said that word again
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:15 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He said that word again"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

No. DRM is a whole lot of big corporations trying to dictate what you can and cannot do with your own machine.

A lot of big corporations including Pixar and Apple (who always to get a bye when this is discussed) who are afraid of rampant piracy.

Those companies own the movies and songs. Those companies want Apple and Microsoft to have secure DRM. To blame it all on Microsft is downright silly.

Another long list of "you may not do".

Lots of things Vista doesn't do here, aren't there?


Lots of features parents want.

My oh my, how very Big-Brother-like.

No. Mom and Dad like. To keep predators away from kids.

think the kids are probably just going to plug in a Linux Live CD and be done with all that nonsense.

The predators will be happy if that happens.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: He said that word again
by smitty on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

think the kids are probably just going to plug in a Linux Live CD and be done with all that nonsense.

The predators will be happy if that happens.


LOL. This makes me think of Congress, pushing through various bills that would have gotten them laughed out of the US except for the "help fight terrorists/child predators" tagline that is always attached to them. Your response is almost exactly like the "a vote for democrats is like a vote for the terrorists" line that was recently trotted out.

I have mixed feelings about the MS DRM stuff. MS is just an enabler, not like the drug dealing MPAA/RIAA, but they have been quite inventive coming up with reasons why it is a good thing not to have actual control over your own machine. Just don't worry your pretty little head by thinking, relax and do what we tell you to do and everything will turn out just fine. Good boy!

Reply Score: 5

RE[7]: He said that word again
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:50 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He said that word again"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

LOL. This makes me think of Congress, pushing through various bills that would have gotten them laughed out of the US except for the "help fight terrorists/child predators" tagline that is always attached to them. Your response is almost exactly like the "a vote for democrats is like a vote for the terrorists" line that was recently trotted out.

Giving parents the ability to keep their chidren safe on the internet is not something to be mocked.

I suspect you wouldn't care if it was Apple or RedHat doing it ... but because its Microsoft giving parents the choice you seem to hate it.

Features allow for choice. What do you have against choice? The features aren't mandatory.

Edited 2006-12-08 06:50

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: He said that word again
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 12:25 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

No. Mom and Dad like. To keep predators away from kids.

I hate to break it to you, but even if Microsoft or Apple were my parents, some people are actually capable of bringing their kids up to look after themselves and act responsibly.

To no-one in particular: Why is it that people who wouldn't accept Congress or Parliament poking their noses into other people's business are so happy about private corporations like Microsoft doing it?

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: He said that word again
by Rayz on Fri 8th Dec 2006 13:49 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
Rayz Member since:
2006-06-24

A lot of big corporations including Pixar and Apple (who always to get a bye when this is discussed) who are afraid of rampant piracy.

Ssdly, that is very true, but it certainly isn't the worse example.

I remember when I first heard about the WGA; I was all set to join the unwashed masses, venting their collective spleen all over the internet.

Then I remembered that I have been a happy iTunes user for years.

Now there's a system that:

1/. Requires you to register your machine when you start using the music store.

2/. Requires you to de-register when you get rid of the machine.

2/. But does allow you to de-register all your machines a couple of times a year, if you happen to lose your PC

So it strikes me that just like Microsoft, Apple must be keeping track of what machines you own, on a central database somewhere.

... but unlike Microsoft, no=-one gets upset about it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: He said that word again
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 14:23 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He said that word again"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Apple doesn't have a monopoly, even in music downloads.

I've been successfully avoiding iTunes for years, all the while enjoying music.

I've been successfully using Linux for years, but still can't avoid Windows.

Reply Score: 2

Gzzy Member since:
2005-11-21

I think Apple and Pixar are 10x worse. Vista comes with a DVR (perfect for light pirating amd misuse) in the box. Apple doesn't do that because Jobs has a large stake in Pixar and Disney.

People bitched when Microsoft changed there EULA to ban virtualization of certian version of Vista but Apple doesn't allow virtualization of OS X at all.

People here are crying about DRM and TPM chips while the only company using it in the consumer sector to do all those things you guys are so paranoid about is Apple. OS X won't even run on anything but a Mac without some serious hacking. That's why apple doesn't have their version of WGA... it's built into their OS.

Microsoft and its partners have been shipping DVD quality (and now HD quality) downloadable movies for years and Apple is only at 640x480 because of Disney and Pixar.


Most of you guys are climbing up the wrong tree when you should be looking at Apple.

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: He said that word again
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 14:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

"think the kids are probably just going to plug in a Linux Live CD and be done with all that nonsense."

The predators will be happy if that happens.


This is a new low for you NotParker, trying to link Linux and child abuse.

What next, Linux users are terrorists? Linux causes cancer? (We already know from Ballmer that it *was* one...)

Parental control software has existed for a while...this is just another example of Microsoft using predatory monopolist tactics to take over new markets. Got to keep those stockholders happy! After all, Microsoft's stock, after hitting an historical high in 2000, has fallen back to half that value and has stagnated there for a couple of years now (with a big dip in May of this year and a slow recovery since then).

Gotta keep that money flowin'!

Reply Score: 2

v RE[7]: He said that word again
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 17:42 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He said that word again"
RE[6]: He said that word again
by stestagg on Sat 9th Dec 2006 19:17 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

who are afraid of rampant piracy.

I can sympathise with that. However history shows us that the pirates will get around the DRM quickly (either by technical means, or be re-recording) and then the Anti-Piracy techniques will only server to annoy the honest user.

To keep predators away from kids.

Do you know how statistically improbable it is for ones kids to be 'corrupted'/'attacked' by predators? Ever crossed a road?
In fact, it is far more likely for a child to be molested by a family friend/member than a stranger. Perhaps parents should lock all family and friends out of their house once they give birth?

Of course, in your world of cultist stalkers, this may not seem true. But it is.

Stephen

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: He said that word again
by NotParker on Sat 9th Dec 2006 23:37 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He said that word again"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

Do you know how statistically improbable it is for ones kids to be 'corrupted'/'attacked' by predators?

Chat rooms and online predators go hand in hand.

http://www.nap.edu/netsafekids/how_chat.html

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: He said that word again
by DigitalAxis on Fri 8th Dec 2006 08:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He said that word again"
DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

It depends. I'm all in favor of parental controls; the user (parent) can change and customize these settings. They're basically sysadmins for the desktop machine, defining limits for users on their machines. That's different from DRM and digital rights.
In the case of DRM, likely as not it's the company who made the content determining what you can and cannot do; or the industry deciding that nobody should be allowed to do certain things.

Trusted Computing is fine (who wants viruses playing with critical system components?) but only as long as you actually trust whoever implemented it.

As for DRM, I can see its rationale, but on the same token everything right now seems to be so paranoid, draconian and locked down that it creates a real problem (this is especially where I don't trust the RIAA/MPAA- how can you be sure they're not installing a rootkit and sending everything back to their office of Corporate Data Mining and Identity Theft? [this is not an attack on Sony, this is a hypothetical])

Maybe this is why the iTunes 99 cent music with limited DRM is popular (other explanations being the iPod itself).

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: He said that word again
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 12:21 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He said that word again"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

How very well said.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: He said that word again
by hal2k1 on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:01 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He said that word again"
hal2k1 Member since:
2005-11-11

//I think open source has its share of security holes. //

Certainly, as nothing is perfect.

As a ratio, it would be something like 100,000+ active exploits for Windows compared with every 1 for Linux.

So you are right, Linux does have its share.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: He said that word again
by pablo_marx on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He said that word again"
pablo_marx Member since:
2006-02-03

As a ratio, it would be something like 100,000+ active exploits for Windows compared with every 1 for Linux.

Okay, what is the criteria here? One Linux (kernel) exploit vs Windows (Kernel)? Particular kernel version vs. any from all of eternity? Linux distributions vs Windows (OS)? Again, particular versions vs any from all of eternity? Standard applications for the distribution vs. anything that can be ran on it (i.e. SQL Server)?

Regardless of the critiera, I'll gladly cough up a Linux exploit or two. Eagerly awaiting your 100,000 to 200,000 Windows exploits.

Cheers,
Steve

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: He said that word again
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He said that word again"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

As a ratio, it would be something like 100,000+ active exploits for Windows compared with every 1 for Linux.

2 for Debian. 1 for GNU's Savannah server.

Firefox has proven otherwise. I notice from the web analytics firms there are lots of pre-1.5 Firefox installs out there ... which are incredibly insecure.

RedHat has hundreds of security issues on the security errata page.

As I've noted, XP SP2 default install (Firewall on and automatic patching) did not get exploited when tested by a Honeynet Project.

Yet Debian got cracked by a zero day exploit.

Microsofts Security Lifecycle has helped make IIS6 and SQl 2000 SP4+ very secure compared to Apache and Oracle.

Vista has gone through the same process.

IE7 runs in reduced privledge mode on Vista. And under XP Sp2 is very secure. (And has 11% market share on some sites beating Firefox).

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: He said that word again
by netpython on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:53 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

IE7 runs in reduced privledge mode on Vista. And under XP Sp2 is very secure. (And has 11% market share on some sites beating Firefox).

When a user installs XP he automatically runs as admin thereafter.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: He said that word again
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 07:23 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He said that word again"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

When a user installs XP he automatically runs as admin thereafter.

But IE7 has several features to counteract that.

• Phishing Filter. Microsoft’s new Phishing Filter provides better protection against malicious Web site operators and helps prevent users from becoming the victims of online fraud. The Phishing Filter warns users about suspicious sites and blocks access to confirmed phishing sites. The opt-in feature analyzes pages in real time, and the confirmed phishing sites list is updated several times every hour using the latest security information from Microsoft and industry partners. This helps ensure that users are safer from the moment new phishing sites first appear on the Web.

• ActiveX Opt-In. This malware protection feature disables nearly all pre-installed ActiveX® Controls, and helps prevent potentially vulnerable controls from being exposed to attack. Users can easily enable or disable ActiveX Controls as needed through the Information Bar and the Add-on Manager.

• Fix My Settings. To help prevent users from browsing with unsafe settings, Internet Explorer 7 alerts users with an Information Bar when current security settings may put them at risk. Within the security settings window, users will see settings highlighted in red when they modify certain critical items. Dialog alerts warn the user about potentially unsafe settings, and the user will be reminded by the Information Bar as long as the settings remain in that condition. With one click, users can instantly reset the security settings to the Medium-High default level by clicking on the Fix My Settings option in the Information Bar.

• Extended Validation Certificates. Microsoft has worked with the industry to develop a new, stricter standard for issuing certificates, called Extended Validation Certificates. To help further reduce identity theft and increase user confidence in Web transactions, the Internet Explorer 7 Address Bar will display the usual SSL padlock with a green highlight when visiting a site with an Extended Validation Certificate.

• Cross-domain Script Barriers. This feature restricts Web page script from interacting with content from other domains or windows to help users keep their personal information out of potentially malicious hands. This new safeguard further helps protect users against malware by limiting the potential for malicious Web sites to manipulate flaws in other Web sites or cause users to download undesired content or software onto their PCs.

• Delete Browsing History. The Delete Browsing History option extends enhanced protection to user privacy and passwords. Especially valuable on shared or public computers, this feature enables users to instantly clean up cached pages, erase any passwords, form data and cookies, and clear their browsing history — all with a single click.

• International Domain Name Anti-Spoofing. In addition to adding native support for International Domain Names in URLs, Internet Explorer 7 also notifies the user when similar characters in the URL are not expressed in the same language — even when the characters look similar across several languages — thus helping protect the user against spoof sites that would otherwise appear as a known trustworthy site.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: He said that word again
by Soulbender on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He said that word again"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"As a ratio, it would be something like 100,000+ active exploits for Windows compared with every 1 for Linux."

Pulling numbers out of your ass doesn't count as facts. I dislike Windows as much as the next guy but come on, absolutely no-one is helped by fabricated numbers like that.

Reply Score: 5

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

DRM has nothing to do with copy protection at all.

Reply Score: 2

Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

Don't worry. Linux will have most of the applicable features within six to eight months, long before Microsoft ships Windows Fiji (which will only be a incremental upgrade).

We'll just let the trolls gun their motors while they're ahead.

Edited 2006-12-08 06:13

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: He said that word again
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He said that word again"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

Don't worry. Linux will have most of the applicable features within six to eight months, long before Microsoft ships Windows Fiji (which will only be a incremental upgrade).

But will Linux ever have any new features no one else has? Copying Microsoft would be kind of lame if everything claimed about Microsoft on this site was true.

Why copy Microsoft? Why not innovate?

Reply Score: 3

Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

GNU/Linux is competiting against the world's most monopolistic contender in our software industry.

The Windows way of doing things has been fabricated in everyones mind.

The fact that Linux is different underneath is a source of criticism. Imagine if the interface was alien as well!

The learning curve would be far too great for most Windows users to switch between the two.

There needs to be familiarity while Windows still holds the throne at 95% marketshare.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: He said that word again
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:45 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

GNU/Linux is competiting against the world's most monopolistic contender in our software industry.

Near monopoly as the EU said. A near monopoly acquired by the mistakes of others and presisteance and hard work on Microsoft part.

The learning curve would be far too great for most Windows users to switch between the two.

I agree.

There needs to be familiarity while Windows still holds the throne at 95% marketshare.

Innovation would still be applauded if attempted.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: He said that word again
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 12:19 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He said that word again"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Innovation would still be applauded if attempted.

Not by the last remaining Windows-worshipping holdouts like you it wouldn't, which is the people Linux still hasn't reached.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Since Microsoft with Vista has copied KDE and Gnome, I don't think one can claim KDE/Gnome are copying Microsoft.

In Windows you still cannot install themes through drag'n'drop - something which has been possible in Gnome for many years. A small thing, but just a feature Windows doesn't have.

In Windows you cannot install templates through drag'n'drop. OS/2 and Gnome has support for that (templates merely being a file or a folder). Just another feature Windows still lacks.

And take a look at contacts and mails in Vista. MS is copying the *nix paradigm of "everything is a file" ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: He said that word again
by rcsteiner on Fri 8th Dec 2006 17:06 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
rcsteiner Member since:
2005-07-12

Dunno about Gnome, but in the OS/2 WPS a template could be any desktop object (like a printer), and you could also install custom fonts and wallpapers in any folder by drag-and-drop. I thought that was quite fun. :-)

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: He said that word again
by rcsteiner on Fri 8th Dec 2006 17:11 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He said that word again"
rcsteiner Member since:
2005-07-12

Oops. I don't think wallpapers could be added via drag-and-drop by default, although they can be with third-party WPS extensions.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Yeah, you're right. Any object could be a template. Such a wonderful OS. My first love ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: He said that word again
by jakesdad on Fri 8th Dec 2006 18:03 UTC in reply to "RE: He said that word again"
jakesdad Member since:
2005-12-28

and they would be?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: He said that word again
by microFawad on Fri 8th Dec 2006 20:03 UTC in reply to "RE: He said that word again"
microFawad Member since:
2005-12-09

Linux don't have that much features just because the Open Source guys always compare GNU/Linux distros on feature basis with Windows and they always try to reinvent the wheel which Microsoft and Apple had already done.

Why don't they go on there own way? Why they always compare it with Windows? No doubt if you want to compete with your competitor, you have to observe them that what are they doing but it doesn't mean that you always compare your softwares feature by feature with your Windows. I am sorry to say that Apple and Microsoft is more innovative than the GNU/Linux.

Reply Score: 1

RE: He said that word again
by B12 Simon on Fri 8th Dec 2006 09:36 UTC in reply to "He said that word again"
B12 Simon Member since:
2006-11-08

They had innovative features but dropped them all so they could actually ship it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: He said that word again
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 12:37 UTC in reply to "RE: He said that word again"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

They had innovative features but dropped them all so they could actually ship it.

ZING!

Reply Score: 1

RE: He said that word again
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 12:16 UTC in reply to "He said that word again"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Indeed.

Maybe they will "innovate" a new definition of "innovation" that actually means what it's supposed to mean.

Reply Score: 1

RE: He said that word again
by smashIt on Fri 8th Dec 2006 18:35 UTC in reply to "He said that word again"
smashIt Member since:
2005-07-06

I guess Steve's version of innovation is what other OS's have had for years.

i have to agree with you.
steve jobs always claims some feature in osx is an innovation, but as soon as you dig a little deeper its just a plain copy.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: He said that word again
by tomcat on Fri 8th Dec 2006 18:44 UTC in reply to "He said that word again"
RE[2]: He said that word again
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 18:52 UTC in reply to "RE: He said that word again"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Desktop compositing is working on Linux *right now* with Beryl, which his not exclusively a Novell project but a community one.

Xgl (and AIGLX) are simply hardware-accelerated X servers. If you're going to troll, at least get your facts straight.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: He said that word again
by tomcat on Fri 8th Dec 2006 18:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He said that word again"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Desktop compositing is working on Linux *right now* with Beryl, which his not exclusively a Novell project but a community one.

What you failed to mention, though, is that desktop compositing in Linux is buggy as hell and doesn't work on a lot of video cards. Ergo, it's not ready for prime time. So, Linux is still playing catch-up.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: He said that word again
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 18:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He said that word again"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

What you failed to mention, though, is that desktop compositing in Linux is buggy as hell and doesn't work on a lot of video cards.

Actually, it's working quite well now. It's stable, fast, and easy to configure with all the new setup tools available. It also works flawlessly with Nvidia, ATI and Intel cards...which is basically every 3D card out there.

Things move fast in the OSS world, unfortunately for anti-Linux trolls...

Ergo, it's not ready for prime time. So, Linux is still playing catch-up.

Sorry, but compositing in Linux is now *more* advanced than what you find in Vista. MS is the now playing catch-up (as far as eye candy goes).

Reply Score: 2

v RE[5]: He said that word again
by tomcat on Fri 8th Dec 2006 19:39 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He said that word again"
RE[6]: He said that word again
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 19:56 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

That list is seriously out-of-date, it seems.

I personally have a Radeon XPRESS 200M with the most recent drivers. Not only does Xgl work (despite what your list would indicate), it no longer requires me to changing the libGL symlink, nor does it cause high CPU usage.

Another example: NVIDIA GeForce 5600. Tried it with most recent drivers, works.

This is exactly the point I was making: a couple of months ago, it was very hard to make Xgl run. The progress since then has been nothing less than phenomenal, so that now compositing works for the vast majority of video cards. (Never mind that Xgl is *not* compositing but hardware acceleration. Compositing is handled by Beryl/Compiz.)

So I stand by my assertion, which unlike your criticism is up-to-date: right now, compositing works very well on working Linux 3D setups, and it is Vista which must catch-up to Linux.

Also, why did you post such a freakin' long list? Couldn't you just post the link? Jeez...

What I notice from the list is that there are much more cards that are supported than ones that aren't - even considering that the list is out-of-date.

Similarly, there are significant problems with "supported" cards if you don't use specific versions of drivers

Use the latest versions of ATI and Nvidia drivers and you'll be fine.

Some of these drivers are only available on certain distros.

Not true. Both NVIDIA and ATI provide distro-agnostic installers for their drivers.

I'm sorry, tomcat, but you'll need to find another bone to pick on. Support for Beryl and XGL/AIGLX has improved *dramatically* since the end of summer.

And of course, if you get the latest version of SuSE, it even works out-of-the-box, and offers much more features than what you find on Vista. Sorry.

Once again, we see that your version of the truth is inconsistent with reality.

BTW, did you notice I was able to reply to you without attacking you or questioning your credibility? Think about that.

Edited 2006-12-08 19:58

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: He said that word again
by tomcat on Mon 11th Dec 2006 22:32 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He said that word again"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

I've read that a lot of people disagree with the list of cards having problems; however, since my card is on the list and I'm having problems, I can only conclude that your mileage may vary. I included the full list because it gives a better picture of the number and type of cards that have been having problems. We're not just talking about a few fringe cards. These are all mainstream video cards.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that Xgl is crap -- or that it won't work. The big problem is that many of the drivers suck hard. That's going to take time to fix. And, until then, I can only conclude that Xgl isn't ready for prime time, despite the reassurances of you and others. I just don't buy your anecdotal reply.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: He said that word again
by stestagg on Sat 9th Dec 2006 19:09 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He said that word again"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

Radeon 9800 XT: Slow KDM.
Radeon X600: OpenGL applications and ...
Radeon X600 Pro: very slow Wobbly effect.

...

Completely unsupported...
ATI Technologies Inc Radeon 9800 XT
ATI Technologies Inc [Radeon X600]

So these cards are both unsupported, and have cosmetic issues??

Also, 2 Graphics Cards [Radeon X600, 9600 M10] and make up 10% of that list.

How many graphics cards aren't up to supporting Aero then?

Reply Score: 2

The Beginning of Software as a Service
by garymax on Fri 8th Dec 2006 02:57 UTC
garymax
Member since:
2006-01-23

I believe that Vista will be the last operating system from MS as we know it. Bill and company have been speaking a lot about software as a service rather than a product.

The only way MS can sustain their profits going forward after the Vista "experience" is to stop selling the OS as a product and sell it as a service.

This way they can claim "innovation" in small baby upgrades instead of one big shot every 4-5 years (and still have a regular revenue stream).

Unfortunately, Windows' poor security may work in Microsoft's favor as it could leverage the SAAS model to guarantee security upgrades and improvements going forward. I'm not sure the public will like it and this may lean in Linux' favor.

Time will tell.

Edited 2006-12-08 03:00

Reply Score: 5

grat Member since:
2006-02-02

Of the three "major" OS players, Microsoft is far behind in development terms.

With an open-source base, both Apple and Linux are way out in front in terms of development resources. Apple worries less about the kernel, and more about the API, graphics system, and UI.

Linux has effectively the same thing-- One team doing Kernel work, another doing Xorg, still others doing the UI (pick a desktop environment).

Microsoft has to field all of the above, and it's not working out well for them. If I were Microsoft, I think I'd seriously consider forking Wine, and the next generation of Windows might have a Linux kernel under it.

If the goal is SAAS, then why not make the OS as cheap as possible?

I don't know if Microsoft would be willing to make that leap, however.

Reply Score: 1

PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

They'd open-source NT before moving to linux. It's pretty much a non-starter anyway.

About apple: does anyone outside of apple actually work on Darwin? I'm pretty sure that apple does all or nearly all of the work there. And actually writing the code is not really the hard part. More effort in these low-level systems seems to go into testing and reviewing.

Reply Score: 1

twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

They'd open-source NT before moving to linux. It's pretty much a non-starter anyway.

OK, why is moving to Linux a non-starter? Are you thinking GPLphobia?

Edited 2006-12-08 12:31

Reply Score: 1

PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

I'm thinking that open-sourcing NT is a non-starter within Microsoft. Moving to Linux would be pretty unnecessary since the NT kernel already does pretty much everything linux does, albeit maybe not as quickly due to its additional abstraction layers to support binary drivers.

The Windows kernel is actually very clean and well-designed. Things get hairy when you move into user-mode.

Reply Score: 1

Gzzy Member since:
2005-11-21

Microsoft already does SAAS... It's called software assurance and volume licensing, among other things. The reason why they give you the OS so cheap (basically free when you average it out) is so they can sell you the support for it. They also make a boat load of money selling you Exchange, SQL Server, and Visual Studio.

That's not going to make them do that on the consumer desktop though. There's no reason to do so until Linux becomes a major competitor there (which they won't) or Apple starts licensing their OS to major OEM's (which they won't either).

The closest thing we'll see to SAAS on the desktop is Windows Live and Vista's Ultimate Extras. They'll start using those services as a valueadd for people who buy more expensive version of Windows. It will also reinforce their brand and give them ad-revenue.

Frankly, I'd be more worried about them making everything ad-driven (think Windows Live Desktop Mail and Windows Live Messenger) and continually in beta... or essentially using the Google model for your desktop. Now that would suck.

Edited 2006-12-08 04:43

Reply Score: 2

NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

The reason why they give you the OS so cheap (basically free when you average it out) is so they can sell you the support for it.

One of the great things about Microsft is you can choose to buy support by the incident. It costs about $250 a call. If the call take hours, you still only pay once.

We have about 200 servers and 3000 desktops and we average 5-10 calls per year. About 1250 - 2500$.

Microsoft support is cheap.

Software Assurance is a different matter, but Microsoft has added some great benefits like Software Virtualization which kick in in 2007.

Reply Score: 2

tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

The only way MS can sustain their profits going forward after the Vista "experience" is to stop selling the OS as a product and sell it as a service.

Not even Microsoft's competitors believe such tripe. Seriously, are you acquainted with reality? MS has a monopoly on desktop operating system sales. That isn't going to change anytime soon. Whenever Dell or Gateway or IBM or HP or whoever sells a laptop or desktop, it's going to have a Microsoft operating system on it -- with some percentage of the profits going to Redmond.

This way they can claim "innovation" in small baby upgrades instead of one big shot every 4-5 years (and still have a regular revenue stream).

Again, more nonsense. What MS needs to do is shorten the cycle of time of each release by doing less, sticking to the schedule, and enforcing accountability up and down the hierarchy. There's no reason that it can't ship an operating system every 2 years which adds value but doesn't go over budget.

fortunately, Windows' poor security may work in Microsoft's favor as it could leverage the SAAS model to guarantee security upgrades and improvements going forward. I'm not sure the public will like it and this may lean in Linux' favor.

Have you even tried using Vista? Whereas XP was nailed with a bunch of malware attacks before it was even out of beta, Vista has largely gone unscathed due to its new security model. This is a fact. Go out to secunia.org, if you doubt it. There are going to be a lot of people in the OSS community who are going to be disappointed that they no longer have security as a blunt instrument to bash MS over the head, because it diminishes their value equation.

Reply Score: 1

archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Vista has largely gone unscathed due to its new security model.

Aren't you jumping the gun a bit with your cheerleading here? Vista just came out...give it a couple of months and then we'll talk again.

Reply Score: 2

archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Your view is incredibly biased by your pro-MS agenda, I'm afraid.

The fact remains that Vista hasn't been hit with a slew of malware -- as was XP prior to release -- so it isn't looking good for your side.

You take pride in stating that Vista hasn't been hit by malware *before* it is released? That's really sad. The fact that it has better security than an OS that gets hacked within 10 minutes of being connected to the Internet isn't very significant. When you're at the bottom of the barrel, there's no other way to go but up...

Stability. Nope. Nobody considers stability to be an issue anymore.

It's true that MS had slowly increased the stability of its OSes, so that they are now on par with *nix/Linux. I'll give you that one.

Accessibility? Nope. Linux accessibility is hopelessly bad.

Linux is just as accessible as Windows is. FUD.

Internationalization? Nope. Same.

Linux is available in more languages than Windows is. It is also very easy to switch an installed version of Linux to another language. You don't have to buy localized versions of Linux to do so either. More FUD.

Appearance? Nope. Most Linux distros look like a high school graphic designer put them together.

That's very subjective, but I'd say that the latest offerings from SuSE, Ubuntu and RedHat look just as good - if not better - than Vista. Eye candy is no longer an advantage for Windows, just like stability is no longer an advantage for Linux. More FUD.

Performance? Nope. Non-starter.

Unsubstantiated (and fallacious) claim. More FUD.

Fonts? Puh-lease. Linux fonts are horrible.

You haven't used Linux in a while. Fonts look better on Linux than on Windows, especially on hi-res displays (1600x1200 and up). They look as good as on Mac OSX, in fact. Yet more FUD.

2003 called, they want their FUD back.

Reply Score: 4

twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Appearance? Nope. Most Linux distros look like a high school graphic designer put them together.

As opposed to Xp, I suppose; which by default looks like a four-year-old with less artistic talent than most four-year-olds put it together.

Reply Score: 3

twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Fonts? Puh-lease. Linux fonts are horrible.

Linux fonts are horrible on a 15.4 inch screen at some resolutions - on SUSE, but perhaps not on other distros (definitely not horrible on a "tv-aspect-ratio" screen on Gentoo. Windows 98 fonts are horrible.

1 out of 2 for both Linux and Windows.

Reply Score: 2

eMagius Member since:
2005-07-06

Windows 98 is, well, eight and a half years old. XP and especially Vista have superb font rendering.

Reply Score: 2

twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

So do most versions of Linux. In fact I'd be hard pushed to say which of Gentoo or XP-with-Cleartext has worse.

XP-without-Cleartext is decidedly worse.

Reply Score: 2

Vista is faster
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 04:26 UTC
NotParker
Member since:
2006-06-01

I've been going back and forth between Vista RC2 and a fresh install of XP. Amd X2 5000+, 1GB of ram and an ATI 1300 Pro. I won't tell you the brand because archiesteel will mod me down for "spamming ads" but it has 4 letters in the name and it was pretty cheap.

Vista is faster and a lot snappier than XP.

I look forward to installing the RTM.

I think Vista will be a huge hit and make Microsoft billions. The pent up demand for a new OS from Microsoft will be fulfilled by Vista, not Linux and Not Apple.

I think Microsoft has put a lot of work into modularizing Windows that will pay lots of dividends.

Edited 2006-12-08 04:26

Reply Score: 2

RE: Vista is faster
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 04:37 UTC in reply to "Vista is faster"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

I won't tell you the brand because archiesteel will mod me down for "spamming ads"

Don't be ridiculous, I wouldn't mod you down for naming a brand...

The pent up demand for a new OS from Microsoft will be fulfilled by Vista, not Linux and Not Apple.

There is very little demand for a new OS with a new byzantine pricing scheme, outside of MS geeks. The vast majority of people right now are happy with WinXP. As I have said before, inertia's now playing against MS.

Most people will upgrade to Vista unintentionally, when they buy a new computer, proving once again that MS owes its quasi-monopoly status (something which you obviously root for) to its OEM strategy. So what else is new?

Seriously, it'd be a real shame if you didn't actually work for MS. You're so dedicated to the company and its products. You don't just claim MS superiority, you actively *wish* for it. It seems like some sort of emotional obsession. You're the ultimate fanboy - I bet you are incapable of saying one bad thing about MS.

So, how much does it pay to astroturf OSNews?

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Vista is faster
by korpenkraxar on Fri 8th Dec 2006 08:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Vista is faster"
korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

Most people will upgrade to Vista unintentionally, when they buy a new computer

No, most people will upgrade to Vista when Blizzard releases a Vista-only WoW version :p

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Vista is faster
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 14:36 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Vista is faster"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

...but Blizzard won't release a Vista-only version of WoW until enough people have it installed... :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Vista is faster
by korpenkraxar on Fri 8th Dec 2006 15:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Vista is faster"
korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

Yes they will, just after MS buys them. But it will be released as "Halo World" instead ;-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Vista is faster
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 12:34 UTC in reply to "RE: Vista is faster"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Oh, well said.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Vista is faster
by tomcat on Fri 8th Dec 2006 20:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Vista is faster"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

There is very little demand for a new OS with a new byzantine pricing scheme, outside of MS geeks.

People don't buy OSes -- they buy packaged computers. Dell offers a menu of hardware choices and the overwhelming majority of users don't care about how many OSes Microsoft offers. They're going to choose the OS that Dell recommends.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Vista is faster
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 20:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Vista is faster"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Yes, you are *exactly* repeating what I was saying. The reason MS enjoys its desktop dominance is due to its OEM strategy.

Good to see that you agree with me, and disagree with NotParker (who was claiming that customers were *waiting* for the new OS).

Feel free to further agree with me anytime you feel like it...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Vista is faster
by Xaero_Vincent on Fri 8th Dec 2006 04:43 UTC in reply to "Vista is faster"
Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

Windows ME made Microsoft billions and was a huge hit as well.

Nothing to see here.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Vista is faster
by Gzzy on Fri 8th Dec 2006 04:47 UTC in reply to "RE: Vista is faster"
Gzzy Member since:
2005-11-21

Windows ME was never destined for huge success. It was launched in between Windows 98/98SE and XP. It was basically Windows 98 Third Edition and beaten down handily by Windows 2000.

Vista doesn't have the same problems with timing that ME had.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Vista is faster
by Xaero_Vincent on Fri 8th Dec 2006 04:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Vista is faster"
Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

Microsoft still made billions and its marketshare greatly surpassed all other non-Windows operating systems.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Vista is faster
by b3timmons on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:01 UTC in reply to "Vista is faster"
b3timmons Member since:
2006-08-26

But wait, the list of Vista features does not stop there! Just search on the terms vista and drm and you too can see the lovely restrictions on the user that have been planned. All in all, a faster set of golden handcuffs, my computer a playground for control freaks--what an irresistable deal! Oh, and since Vista is modularized, you can see even more how lots of dividends of all kinds will be paid.

Seriously, I will admit there is a type of person who will instinctively be right at home with this kind of thing, but only readers with a certain maturity will get my drift here. Good luck to you.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Vista is faster
by Soulbender on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:30 UTC in reply to "Vista is faster"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"The pent up demand for a new OS from Microsoft will be fulfilled by Vista"

I'm not so sure there's a pent up demand, most people are pretty happy with XP. Of course, you can always artificially create demand and that's what MS is good at.
Now doubt it will be on a lot of machines (especially new ones) but "pent up demand" make it sound like there'll be a flood of people rushing to the stores to get their copy of Vista and I find that to be quite unlikely.
Maybe MS should play the Sony trumpcard and create an artificial and fake shortage ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Vista is faster
by Coxy on Fri 8th Dec 2006 19:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Vista is faster"
Coxy Member since:
2006-07-01

'most people are pretty happy with XP.'

I don't think it's that most people are happy, I think it's more that most people couldn't care. And they shouldn't need to either.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Vista is faster
by raver31 on Fri 8th Dec 2006 19:01 UTC in reply to "Vista is faster"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

What are you on about ? Vista is not modular, in fact it is so far from modular I fail to see how you thought it was.

Reply Score: 2

v End Users
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 05:11 UTC
RE: End Users
by smitty on Fri 8th Dec 2006 05:26 UTC in reply to "End Users"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

I'm with archisteel here, Vista is going to be a huge success for MS but only because everyone will get it with a new computer. I don't see millions of people rushing out to upgrade from XP. In fact, the company I worked at just upgraded all our computers from 2000 to XP a couple of months ago, so I imagine we won't go to Vista for another 5 years.

Oh, and did someone actually mod you down for saying you had a Dell? If so, link to your post and I'll mod you up - somehow I think you're exaggerating here. Maybe you called someone a cultist and mentioned you had a dell in one post, then figured you must have been modded down for the latter? ;-)

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: End Users
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 05:48 UTC in reply to "RE: End Users"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

Oh, and did someone actually mod you down for saying you had a Dell? If so, link to your post and I'll mod you up - somehow I think you're exaggerating here. Maybe you called someone a cultist and mentioned you had a dell in one post, then figured you must have been modded down for the latter? ;-)

No. What happened was that someone was going around claiming Vista retailed for 600$ and that he couldn't afford a PC with Vista on it.

To counter that FUD I listed some of the features of a very inexpensive D*** that included a free upgrade coupon to Vista Home Premium (with the media center features). I included the link because a certain stalker had been accusing me of lying a lot that day.

So I included a reference.

The stalker modded me down.

Vista is going to be a huge success for MS but only because everyone will get it with a new computer. I don't see millions of people rushing out to upgrade from XP.

Maybe. Maybe not. But the same thing was said about Xp and it has 85% of the market now.

Googles webstats showed a nice steady progression for XP even as Linux lingered at 1% year after year.

Computers are really inexpensive now with dual core PC's going for close to 500$ from D*** I think a lot of upgrading will be going on in 2007!

Edited 2006-12-08 05:51

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: End Users
by smitty on Fri 8th Dec 2006 05:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: End Users"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Maybe. Maybe not. But the same thing was said about Xp and it has 85% of the market now.

Perhaps, but not by me. It was pretty obvious that XP was an enormous leap from the 98/ME world, and I thought there was enormous demand for a more secure and robust OS. Right now I think XP is good enough for most people and that satisfaction is going to keep people from actively getting Vista.

Googles webstats showed a nice steady progression for XP even as Linux lingered at 1% year after year.

Yes, as people upgraded their old 98/ME computers with new ones they got the new OS. This is actually exactly what I think will happen with Vista too, I just expect the initial jump to be much smaller.

Computers are really inexpensive now with dual core PC's going for close to 500$ from D***.

OK, there have been multiple posts now saying it is fine to name Dell. Since your feelings seem to be hurt so badly, I'm modding up your previous post. Feel better?

Reply Score: 3

v RE[4]: End Users
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: End Users"
v RE[5]: End Users
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 14:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: End Users"
v RE[6]: End Users
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 16:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: End Users"
RE[7]: End Users
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 16:40 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: End Users"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Great. Can't wait to hear about it. :-)

Note: this message, as well as the parent, are off-topic. Feel free to mod them down.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: End Users
by tpaws on Fri 8th Dec 2006 16:54 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: End Users"
tpaws Member since:
2006-06-02

Take a deep breath and let it out slowly. No one is stalking you. Your astroturfing has simply made you a target. You are not contributing much of any value. Quite frankly, I am reading much less of OSNews because of your crap. How many times have you posted that link to MS Vista marketing page from Wikipedia?

Get a sense of humor, and don't be too sensitive when others don't quite get it. Better yet, just go away.

Reply Score: 3

v RE[6]: End Users
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 18:20 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: End Users"
RE[7]: End Users
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 18:50 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: End Users"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Again with insults, NotParker? Are you then going to go and cry a river about being persecuted by evil FOSS advocates?

The "Suck it" jab was a WWE reference. It is not sexual. I already gave you the Wikipedia link.

Now, if I had said "Blow me", then that would be a different story...

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: End Users
by tomcat on Fri 8th Dec 2006 20:01 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: End Users"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Right now I think XP is good enough for most people and that satisfaction is going to keep people from actively getting Vista.

People don't upgrade their OSes. They buy a new computer with the latest OS installed on it. Consequently, as soon as Vista is available, OEMs are going to offer it to customers -- and those customers are going to buy it. Dell is going to actively phase out XP and transition everyone to Vista. I didn't make up these facts. It's reality.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: End Users
by james_parker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 20:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: End Users"
james_parker Member since:
2005-06-29

People don't upgrade their OSes. They buy a new computer with the latest OS installed on it.

I suggest this is an over generalization. It would be more accurate to say that "most home and SOHO MicroSoft Windows users don't buy upgrades for their OS."

MacOS, BSD, Linux, and Solaris users upgrade (whether paid or not), mid-size and large offices upgrade, and home users install free patches which effectively upgrade.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: End Users
by tomcat on Mon 11th Dec 2006 22:34 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: End Users"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

I suggest this is an over generalization. It would be more accurate to say that "most home and SOHO MicroSoft Windows users don't buy upgrades for their OS."

That's because Microsoft doesn't sell patches like Apple does.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: End Users
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 15:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: End Users"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Googles webstats showed a nice steady progression for XP even as Linux lingered at 1% year after year.

Webstats can't be used as an accurate measure of OS market share. That is why Google removed the stat from their Zeitgeist section.

IDC, a firm which you have endorsed, says that Desktop Linux was at 3% at the beginning of 2005, and likely to be at 6% in 2006.

Reply Score: 4

RE: End Users
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 05:39 UTC in reply to "End Users"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Sure, most people will get Vista for about 50$ more than a bare PC from D*** (gotta be careful with stalkers) preinstalled.

Since I assume you're referring to me in a not-so-subtle way, let me say ONCE AGAIN that you don't have to worry about naming a brand.

For everyone else who's wondering why NotParker is acting in such a childish manner: I modded down one of his post because he basically listed a complete system for sale, along with the price and a link to the store selling the system. To me that's spamming.

Of course, naming a brand name isn't spamming. However, since NotParker cannot respond logically when his arguments are countered, he resorts to ad hominem attacks, in this case implying I'm acting irrationally by wanting to censor him for saying brand names. Of course, that is completely ridiculous, I don't believe this for a second. In fact, I myself mentioned that I had a Compaq Presario v2310 laptop in a recent post.

(NotParker thinks I'm stalking him because I like to counter the disinformation he spreads in order to further his pro-MS/anti-Linux agenda.)

Reply Score: 4

RE: End Users
by Xaero_Vincent on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:05 UTC in reply to "End Users"
Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

I compared the openSUSE install screenshots with Vista's install and instantly thought that there were way too many choices offerred by openSUSE that would have been tough for the average end user.

Average end users don't re-install their operating system.

The ones who do know enough about computers to run any nice graphical installation program.

"The Home Basic, Home Premium, and Ultimate editions of Windows Vista include a range of parental controls. An administrator can apply parental control restrictions to other users on the computer. Facilities include:

http://www.censornet.com/product/

AND

Parents can change the group permissions of certain files and programs so that their children, who have their own user account, cannot access them (such as or M rated games). Logging IM conversations is easy in GAIM and Kopete. Perhaps a 3rd party daemon could run in the background that monitors all activity on the kids accounts, while parents can later see a log of the events that occured.

All in all... solutions are already out there for both Windows and GNU/Linux.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: End Users
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:17 UTC in reply to "RE: End Users"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

All in all... solutions are already out there for both Windows and GNU/Linux.

Except the games children want to play are on Windows. Microsft is adding a lot of new features that many different groups of people want.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: End Users
by Xaero_Vincent on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: End Users"
Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

Except the games children want to play are on Windows. Microsft is adding a lot of new features that many different groups of people want.

Except those Windows games children want to play most likely run on Linux as well; not to mention the nice selection of educational software and games availible for Linux.

The FLOSS community has added a lot of features that many different groups of people use.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[4]: End Users
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: End Users"
v RE[5]: End Users
by Xaero_Vincent on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: End Users"
v RE[6]: End Users
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:47 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: End Users"
v RE[7]: End Users
by Xaero_Vincent on Fri 8th Dec 2006 07:02 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: End Users"
RE[3]: End Users
by xiaokj on Fri 8th Dec 2006 06:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: End Users"
xiaokj Member since:
2005-06-30



Web content blocking, including the ability to limit web browsing to "kids websites", as well as blocking particular categories of content such as "Pornography", "Drugs", "Web e-mail", "Web chat", and so on. File downloads may also be disabled.
Time limitations on when the account may be used
Restrictions on what kind of games may be played. An administrator may choose from one of five different game rating services: ESRB (United States and Canada), PEGI (Europe), USK (Germany), OFLC (Australia and New Zealand), CERO (Japan). Ratings are used to determine the highest allowed game rating. As with web content blocking, a number of categories of content may also be blocked regardless of game ratings.
Restrictions on what programs may be executed
Activity reports to monitor what was done under Parental Controls
Ability to log actions such as Instant Messaging conversations
The Parental Controls area is "pluggable" allowing applications to add their own settings. For example, a chat program might offer a restriction to only allow the user to enter certain channels, and forbid private conversation outside those channels."


And you said games children want to play are on windows? Do you want to restrict them or do you want to let them play, then?

forbidding private conversation outside those channels? Have it occurred to you that this is akid to a jail term? When Apartheid was still around, political prisoners also had no chance to converse as they would, and yet they managed to overthrow the government with the leaders in prison doing all of the thinking.

Very well, its possible to do such a thing externally, and it is available in linux too. What is your point? All these parental controls are available long ago, by third parties and for all real systems. What is your point? And is the feature really wanted? Where is your evidence?

NotParker, you HAVE good points, but do you really have to spew loads of crap to hide them? Do you really mean what you mean? Do you have a hidden agenda? And is your face so thick enough that our modding you down does nothing to you? Please, for goodness sake, wise up and not choke up all of OSNews' comment pages.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[4]: End Users
by NotParker on Fri 8th Dec 2006 07:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: End Users"
RE[5]: End Users
by xiaokj on Fri 8th Dec 2006 07:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: End Users"
xiaokj Member since:
2005-06-30

We already pointed out that linux also have parental controls. What more do you want? Can you stop harping the same tune?

DRM was meant to be more than parental controls, NotParker. You know it yourself. We have stated other ways to use DRM to consumer disbenefit. IT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC and can lead to a scheme similar to what apartheid used.

we modded you down because you are the trouble maker. Archisteel can't possibly mod you down to -4 alone. I've personally modded you up whenever you had good points.

Whenever we had an article on free software or on windows, you take up a quarter of the comments. Tell me who's the trouble maker?

Personally, I've wasted too many mod points on you. Some up, most down. Enough said.

And about being polite, your comments are taking too much space to be polite. And historically, you are not polite. Just like Microsoft and their horrible track record. We will not believe you because of the dubious comments you have made.

This discussion was around Ballmer, MS and windows. Until you commented, and the comments to stop you. Don't you think thats enough? Stalkers? Is anyone here around you right now? Please stop using that title on the people who know your past comments.

Finally, this is still OSNews. We still talk nicely about all OSes. And I use Windows too. Enough said.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: End Users
by archiesteel on Fri 8th Dec 2006 15:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: End Users"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Why are you trolling a discussion about Ballmer and Microsoft and Windows anyway? Just to cause trouble?

That's pretty hypocritical coming from someone who trolls Linux threads all the time...

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: End Users
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 12:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: End Users"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

forbidding private conversation outside those channels? Have it occurred to you that this is akid to a jail term? When Apartheid was still around, political prisoners also had no chance to converse as they would, and yet they managed to overthrow the government with the leaders in prison doing all of the thinking.

That's a very good point. These Windows fanboys/astroturfers seem to think that if they can just paint DRM et al in an inoffensive-enough light, people will fall for it.

It reminds me of the opening sequence in the film Biko, in which apartheid-era South African Government troops move into a black township and open fire on the inhabitants without provocation. The next day the incident is reported as "an operation to find Bantus (blacks) without work permits [to work in "white" South Africa]" in which "they encountered little resistance".

Of course it's fictionalized, but I bet it faithfully represents the sort of thing that went on. Of course, like the Soviet empire, apartheid South Africa didn't last long, thank God, because it was built on bullshit.

So my answer to the first paragraph I wrote is that if people are dumb enough to fall for it, you won't have to go to the trouble of prettying it up. And those that aren't will see through even the prettifying.

Reply Score: 2

Parental Controls
by cyclops on Fri 8th Dec 2006 08:38 UTC
cyclops
Member since:
2006-03-12

I've thought about this, and it *is* a feature some parents would want.

Regardless of a system that is based of filter-out, not filter-in, will never be secure, without parental supervision.

The logging chats I do find very interesting. I'm pretty sure it will only apply to a certain chat-client. I'm not even sure how that would work.

I did think the game filtering was a little surprising, as that definitely seemed both trivial and a bit useless. A parent should know what games their child plays.

I do think this is to give the illusion of parental control, when it is actually a poor replacement to proper parenting.

Reply Score: 2

RE[9]: End Users
by Xaero_Vincent on Fri 8th Dec 2006 08:40 UTC
Xaero_Vincent
Member since:
2006-08-18

Ok. You disagree with me.

No. I disagree with your agenda here.

Your dislike of WIndows is well known. Why troll a discussion about Vista / Ballmer in it other that for your own personal amusement and to stalk me I guess.

I don't dislike Windows. I've been using it for the past twelve years. But I also like Linux and think they are worthy competitors. If you want to point out the problems with Linux, I'll point out the problems I've discovered in Windows over the years to fend you away.

You, however, do not like Linux (which is fine) and love emphasizing percieved marketshare statistics as a way of upsetting those who use Linux successfully (not fine).

Wouldn't you say that someone who intensely dislikes Windows who participates in a discussion about Vista just to stalk someone and call them names is the immature person?

See above.

Reply Score: 1

Has anyone read the article!?
by cyclops on Fri 8th Dec 2006 08:54 UTC
cyclops
Member since:
2006-03-12

Did anyone notice that the four pillers have changed?

They used to be these :-
* Avalon: new display subsystem (composition)
* Indigo: communication and web services
* WinFS: structured, schema-based storage
* Fundamentals: getting the basics better (deployment, reliability, performance, security).

Now they are these :-
* desktop and personal productivity
* one is about the enterprise
* entertainment devices
* online.

How many times does it use the word innovation?

Reply Score: 3

PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

The first four pillars were for Vista. The second four are for Microsoft as a company.

I don't think any of these 8 pillars matter that much.

Reply Score: 1

moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

The best thing Ballmer can do after Vista is fully out the door is resign. The Gates/Ballmer era is or should be well and truly over. It's brought almost unimaginable wealth and success to Microsoft and Ballmer has proved an indefatigable hard-charging salesman, but imho those are no longer the qualities Microsoft needs.

Microsoft needs to become nimble where it is elephantine, lean where it is bloated and cut the boasting, the gloating and the bullying - plenty of all of these on display in this interview. For example, claiming that you're effectively number two in the mobile and mp3 markets and will soon own them is utterly risible. Claiming that Windows is going forward as more of the same is completely absurd when organizationally at least, Vista has been a sopa opera come catastrophe.

Microsoft needs to find the humility to start listening to its customers rather than talking down to them and it needs to ask itself why absolutely no one - except apparently Novell - wants to get into bed with them. This interview reminds me of General Westmoreland wittering on in Vietnam while failing to notice that his more innovative opponents has moved on from the era of set-piece battles to a whole new ballgame.

Reply Score: 5

twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Remind me to mod you up, when I get some modpoints, for two reasons.

First, because you make some very good points.

Secondly, because you manage to make them without mentioning the analogy I would have mentioned for the umpteenth time! ;-P

Reply Score: 1

tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

I'm scratching my head and wondering whether we read the same article. Because I don't see some of your complaints in the interview at all...

For example, claiming that you're effectively number two in the mobile and mp3 markets and will soon own them is utterly risible

Would you mind providing a quotation which shows this? Ballmer basically says that Nokia/Symbian and Microsoft are the biggest mobile players, and that he could see mobile device licenses outpacing those of desktops in the future. But I see no mention of "owning" the market. You do understand that growth of Windows mobile licenses doesn't necessarily equate to Microsoft outpacing Nokia/Symbian, right? It seems clear that you misunderstood that point. Regarding the music market, Ballmer indicates that Zune will "gain ground" on Apple, not that it will "own" the market. It's not clear where you got that idea. It certainly wasn't in the article.

Microsoft needs to find the humility to start listening to its customers rather than talking down to them and it needs to ask itself why absolutely no one - except apparently Novell - wants to get into bed with them. This interview reminds me of General Westmoreland wittering on in Vietnam while failing to notice that his more innovative opponents has moved on from the era of set-piece battles to a whole new ballgame

You're projecting. Based on its growing sales, MS is listening to its customers needs. You may perceive them as arrogant and boastful, but those factors are apparently having little effect on the company's progress.

Reply Score: 1

Development team
by bolomkxxviii on Fri 8th Dec 2006 11:44 UTC
bolomkxxviii
Member since:
2006-05-19

Of course the development team for Vista can't be broken up and sent to new projects. Just think of all the things we were promised in Vista that aren't there (think WinFS). They will be furiously working on SP1, SP2...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Development team
by twenex on Fri 8th Dec 2006 12:53 UTC in reply to "Development team"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

SP1, SP2...

Do you think that by SP2 they will finally have that new virus--protection thingy working right?

Reply Score: 1

...
by Manuma on Fri 8th Dec 2006 15:42 UTC
Manuma
Member since:
2005-07-28

I'll just waith and see.

Reply Score: 1

Does Linux need to catch up
by vikramsharma on Fri 8th Dec 2006 18:47 UTC
vikramsharma
Member since:
2005-07-06

Why does everyone (windows user) say, Linux is a kernel not an os. Linspire, XandrOS, Mandriva are easier to install/use than Windows. If Linux was such a loser why would Microsoft run so many ditros of Linux and BSD in their R&D centers.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Does Linux need to catch up
by tomcat on Fri 8th Dec 2006 20:09 UTC in reply to "Does Linux need to catch up"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Why does everyone (windows user) say, Linux is a kernel not an os

I don't hear Windows users saying that. But I hear plenty of Linux users saying that. Why? Because they don't want the attendant baggage of the thousands of buggy apps associated with "Linux, the kernel"; whereas, they're all too willing to associate bugs in Microsoft Outlook, Internet Explorer, et al with "Windows, the operating system".

Linspire, XandrOS, Mandriva are easier to install/use than Windows.

First, ease of installation is a red herring. End users buy packaged computers; they don't install OSes. Second, I don't know how much easier OS installation has to get, in order to be "better"; for example, you pop in the Vista disk, click on a couple buttons, and automated setup requires no interaction whatsoever. How is Linspire et al "easier to install" than that?

If Linux was such a loser why would Microsoft run so many ditros of Linux and BSD in their R&D centers.

I've never seen statistics detailing how many Linux/BSD boxes Microsoft runs. Where did you get your numbers?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Does Linux need to catch up
by leech on Fri 8th Dec 2006 22:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Does Linux need to catch up"
leech Member since:
2006-01-10

"I don't hear Windows users saying that. But I hear plenty of Linux users saying that. Why? Because they don't want the attendant baggage of the thousands of buggy apps associated with "Linux, the kernel"; whereas, they're all too willing to associate bugs in Microsoft Outlook, Internet Explorer, et al with "Windows, the operating system". "

The difference here is that Internet Explorer and other Microsoft applications are (were?) quite difficult for the average schmoe to pull out of Windows, since they were so tied into it.

With Linux distributions (especially ones like Debian that start out with just the kernel and gnu tools) you can literally build your operating system as you see fit around the kernel itself. Hell with a system like Debian you can even change kernels, though of course Linux is the best supported, but they do have a bsd variety as well.

"First, ease of installation is a red herring. End users buy packaged computers; they don't install OSes. Second, I don't know how much easier OS installation has to get, in order to be "better"; for example, you pop in the Vista disk, click on a couple buttons, and automated setup requires no interaction whatsoever. How is Linspire et al "easier to install" than that? "

The thing that counts in 'ease of installation' is how usable is the Operating System after first install.

An example, Windows XP (if installed from just the plain Microsoft Windows XP install CD) has no firewall (I'm talking pre SP2), no decent word processor, lack of a lot of network drivers, etc.

Something like Linspire or other Linux distributions have basically all the apps you would need installed right off the bat, so you don't have to spend hours searching for drivers or little applications like an archive manager.

It's even worse with OEM versions of Windows XP that install crap like AOL, or MSN Explorer.

Reply Score: 1

NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

XP had a firewall from RTM. It just wasn't on by default. And it was improved in SP2 and on by default.

Reply Score: 1

vikramsharma Member since:
2005-07-06

Microsoft's Linux lab at Redmond does run various distros of Linux and bsd for testing purposes etc, there are various articles on the net just search for "Microsoft linux labs". A few I thought were interesting:

http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/05/08/08/1247220.shtml

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/operating_systems/meet_the_h...

Reply Score: 1

tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Linux has no appreciable presence within MS. For example, MS isn't running its business on Linux. The Linux lab is all about looking for value-add -- mostly around interoperability -- for Microsoft's big 'nix customers.

Reply Score: 1

flattish or flatfish
by acamfield on Fri 8th Dec 2006 21:13 UTC
acamfield
Member since:
2006-11-17

>>So, this one has been more flattish in size, and the >>others have been increasing more.

I still say Balmer's an idiot. Look out, he's got a chair!

Reply Score: 1