Today is a solemn day of introspection and rememberance here in the United States, and we here at OSNews would like to send our condolances to those who lost loved ones in the attacks on the Pentagon and Twin Towers. Though most of the people of the world did not experience the attacks first hand, there are very few people in the world who were not affected by them in some way. I know it's a bit off-topic, but I'd like to open up a discussion thread today for people to air their feelings about the events of a year ago, and where they think things stand today. And if you read on, I'll get things started by talking a bit about what happened to me on that day and since.
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Let us remember all the victims of September, 11.
Let us remember all the victims of the "War Against Terror", dead Afghans.
Let us remember all victims of aggression.
One year ago today, I worked less than a mile from the Pentagon in Crystal City (we've since moved to the Navy Yard in DC). My entire office was filled with black smoke and it was tough to breathe outside. A few of us went across the street to the Hyatt and went to the observation deck. We watched the Pentagon burn.
That night, we went over to Pentagon City and climbed the big hill on Army Navy Drive (for those of you that know DC) and watched, once again, as the Pentagon burned, flames appearing to come from everywhere on the inside of the outer ring. It look like oil burning, no matter what they did, it didn't make an visible difference. It burned for days.
I'm over this - I'm ready to move on and get back to business. Working for the armed forces, I feel as though I can indirectly do my part by making sure the people here can get their part done. But I'll always remember, in vivid color, Sept 11, 2001.
I would like to say thank you to all emergency response personnel. Without you, not as many people would have survived Sept 11. Thank you to all the Fire Fighters, Police Officers, Medical Personnel, everyone that takes time to help others. You are true heroes.
I'm actually quite sympathetic to your point of view. I considered just lgnoring this sad anniversary. But I decided that, like with all off-topic news postings, if people don't want to read about it, they can just skip ahead and not read it. So let's all try to be civil.
yes, let us remember this too:
- hiroshima nuke from usa
- embargo of all muslim countries from usa
- dessert storm from usa
- the killing of the natives from usa
- slavery of black people from usa
- vietnam war of usa
- the payback and killing of nearly 5000 children and innocent people in afghanistan because of their chirurgical war.
... list is probably incomplete.
I read this somewhere, and think it's a good quote
"In New York the Police are called the "Finest" and the Firemen the "Bravest" that morning they showed us why"
Please do not turn this site into another
stommach-turning "we-are-all-heroes-here-in-the-USA" site.
Believe it or not. the rest of the world does not realy care.
And in case you did not know: there are more non-Americans in the world than Americans.
So let's keep (at least) this site at a professional level.
Thank you.
For anyone that has been affected by Sept. 11, 2001, may GOD bless you and may he watch over you.
"Believe it or not. the rest of the world does not realy care."
You should care. If it were not for the USA, you would not be able to post anything to this web site, since the internet would not exist.
Ass....
Come on anonymous, you do care. How can you not??? What if it would of happened to you? What if you were in the World Trade Center? What if your kid was in the World Trade Center? What if you were on one of those planes? What if that was your father that risked his life and died to help his fellow man. My point is you have to care. And if you don't care then something is wrong with you!!!
Ralf - a good effort; by being literate and quoting historical facts, you actually do reach some people. I love some aspects of the country, and agree some could be better. Help us to learn so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. That said, no culture is perfect, always keep that in mind.
Anonymous ("Agree!" subject) - you posted the least professional comment of all. If you expect compassion and respect, you should give the same some of the time.
Ralf,
If it were not for the USA, EVERYONE would be speaking german today. So, learn your f***ing history.
Ass...
Well, we're back to September 11 again, one year after the free world changed forever. The media is bombarding us with the horrible images of that day, relentlessly making us re-live the horror we felt last year. I don't know how we can expect families of victims to be able to cope.
I was not personally affected by the events of that day, in that my family members are all still alive, and nobody I personally know was killed, or lost family. I was affected however in how I think about life, family, and freedom, as any thinking person who has been exposed to this kind of outrage would be.
I find myself much more aware of certain things. Paranoia would be a stretch in describing the change, but possibly excessive concern would not. I worry more about where my family is and what they are doing. I think more about people's motives, and have a hard time not ascribing sinister attributes to a lot of things I see every day, from verbal exchanges between strangers to events in the news.
I find myself for the first time in my 10 year career as a consulting engineer, worrying about terrorism vulnerabilities in the projects I design. After all, I am desiging systems that will become core infrastructures in the communities where we work, and what could be a juicier terrorism target?
To add insult to injury, I'm now afraid to fly. The few times I've travelled by air since last year were no longer uncomfortable inconveniences like flying used to be. In the last year my air travels were worrisome hyper-alert nerve jangling experiences. Maybe that will go away in time.
I get the shakes whenever I see the shocking imagery of last September 11 on television or in print. It is a shaking that resounds throughout much of my life. I don't want my children to have to grow up in a world of fear. I think the free world is doing a good job of focussing strength on defying this world of fear, and I have hope for the future.
I know it's flame bait, but just to rebutt this person:
- hiroshima nuke from usa
See Pearl Harbor for how that started (we weren't in WWII originally). And I bet all the other conquered countries thanked us plenty. Ever hear of the horrific camps the Japanese had in mainline China? Guess you forgot about that.
embargo of all muslim countries from usa
What embargo is this? The embargo to Saudi Arabia? The embargo of any of the pacific rim Islamic countries? There are no embargos that blanketly cover "muslim countries". Or is that Iraq's embargo, which was started when they invaded another beloved Muslim country--Kuwait? We were also brought in by Saudi Arabia who thought they were next on Saddam's hit list.
dessert storm from usa
See above
the killing of the natives from usa
An unfortunate part of US history that we should not look lightly on. However, this is the same history of every country, in every region throughout history, not something unique to the US.
slavery of black people from usa
Same as above. As a footnote, the slave trade is alive and well in many parts of the world, but no longer exists in the USA.
vietnam war of usa
The unfortunate side effect of the US getting in the middle of a civil war. The extra casualties imposed by both US and USSR involvement could have been avoided. However, the intra-country deaths would have probably been about the same.
the payback and killing of nearly 5000 children and innocent people in afghanistan because of their chirurgical war.
5000 is higher than any number I've ever seen. Unfortunately some people have been killed during air strikes, and that has been minimized by technologically advanced armaments. There is no more need to carpet bomb areas to eliminate targets. Now ask yourself how many people were killed accidentally or even tortured intentionally under the Afghan civil war between the northern alliance and the taliban? Let's see how our numbers compare.
... list is probably incomplete.
Yes, very incomplete and compeletly one sided. US history has its low points, as does every other countries. How about remembering that sometime. Fortunately you managed to bring up a few strawman arguments I keep seeing, and gave me the chance to publicly shoot them down.
While I think this country certainly has done some bad things with bad motivations, Ralf doesn't see the whole picture on some of those things he listed. There are two sides to every conflict and the US is not always the instigator as your list would suggest.
The USA is far from perfect. But name a country that is!
Hank,
Nice reply.
I am not quite so eloquent with my words. Thank you for expressing my feelings acurately.
Why don't you remember all the other human tragedies, like the slaughter of innocent civilians in the Jenin holocaust, and the slaughter in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres?
And what about the hundreds of thousands killed in other places, like Bosnia, China etc. etc.?
America is not the centre of the world.
and lets not forget over 500,000 Iraqui children killed directly as a result odf US foreign policy.
Television interview, "60 Minutes", May 12, 1996:
Lesley Stahl, speaking of US sanctions against Iraq:
"We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And -- and you know, is the price worth it?"
Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice,
but the price -- we think the price is worth it."
Yes, let us also remember that America is the only country to have used Nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, chosen apparantly because of their large populations. Let us mark the day that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed too. Why only the WTC?
Why don't you remember all the other human tragedies, like the slaughter of innocent civilians in the Jenin holocaust, and the slaughter in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres?
And what about the hundreds of thousands killed in other places, like Bosnia, China etc. etc.?
America is not the centre of the world.
We do need to remember these horrific events, and the hundreds of other like them that have occured throughout time. The 9/11 tragedy is different not in the magnitude of the horror, but in the vividness of the event. I wish all of us throughout the world would work to route out these types of vermin that perpetrate these direct and deliberate acts of horror on people. Unforunately I doubt that the majority of the people of the world have either the inclination or the ability to do so. You're right, the US isn't the center of the world, nor can we solve all the world's problems.
Also let's remember that the most vivid reminders are of the WTC, not the pentagon. Remember people from 60 nations died in that tragic event, not just US citizens. The world was put on notice, along with the US, that these cowardly underlings of a deranged billionare's son and his misdirected advisers have the ability to exact great destruction anywhere in the world. That was the power of the message, and why the whole world feels the pain of those in the World Trade Center.
Why don't you get presents on other people's birthdays?
You wrote:
"You should care. If it were not for the USA, you would not be able to post anything to this web site, since the internet would not exist. "
And hereby showed that you missunderstood my message.
We do not care about your wars, and the enemies you make.
This has nothing to do with operative systems, internet or science, and therefor should be postet under
http://poetry.com/us_tragedy/searchgroup.asp and not osnews.com.
I hope that people that remember and hold a minute of silence for the 3500 usa citizens that were cowardly murdered also hold a minute of silence for the 4000 afgan men, women and children (all civilians) that were cowardly murdered by US bombs.
The madness is not only at the fundamentalist side and sadly 3500 US citizens and 4000 afgan citizens paid this with there life. People are people, please do not forget them.
C.
Ralf - if you are going to point out the US being hippocritical (sp?), then at least name times when we were!
we gave weapons to saddam (to fight iran).
we gave weapons to osama (to fight ussr).
we give weapons to israel.
we need to stop supporting terrorists whenever it is convenient for us. we almost had the same problem with the northern alliance.
(Almost) everything you listed was an action with good intentions. Some of them were mistakes, but they were made honestly.
-concerned u.s. citizen
US threatens world peace, says Mandela
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2251067.stm
I hope that people that remember and hold a minute of silence for the 3500 usa citizens that were cowardly murdered also hold a minute of silence for the 4000 afgan men, women and children (all civilians) that were cowardly murdered by US bombs.
The US had a systemic policy of bombing civilian homes in Afghanistan? No. They were targeting military targets, and unfortunately some bombs strayed, or they were given bad intelligence by their afghan informants (wedding party incident). Compare that to the acts of any of these terrorists, who's entire modus operendi is to target innocent people exclusively. How do these two compare? That is not to say that we should not mourn the loss of anyone in war, but there is a marked difference between innocent people being accidentally killed, and a group intentionally targetting innocent people almost exclusively.
Though the lessons to learn are so obvious in this case, they are totally ignored by the US government.
Sure it is a tragedy wat's happend, however the worst tragedy lies in the fact that the death of so many victims has only initiated more agression, instead of a reflection of how it ever came that far.
The "War against Terror" seems only to be an agressive way to eliminate cultures that don't think "our" way.
Ik think we all must ask ourselves what makes people get so fed up with the western culture to do such attacks. A part of the awnser can be obtained by seeing the relation Israel-Palestina. The Palestines are opressed. As a result: Desperate actions like suicide bombings. As I see it, desperate measures to get attention. Israel being a close allie of the US. . .
Go look at ourselves first, and than a bit closer the "other person" before marking him a terrorist.
BBL
The Afganistans have a more positive future thanks to removing the extreme government that once persecuted them. You could always consider that the price paid by the 4000 afgans was a price to greater freedom for their children and their children's children.
You should look at all the afgans killed by their previous government, C.
Applause goes to Hank!! WooHOO!
now about this...
>>and lets not forget over 500,000 Iraqui children killed directly as a result odf US foreign policy. <<
i say bullshit bullshit bullshit! sadam could have let the inspectors finish. could have bought all the food they needed. could... could..... but didnt. why? well he build a huge multimillion dollar palace or two to live in. yes while these unfortunate children was starving. sadam chooses to buy weopons not food. live in luxury at the expense of his countrymen. but i guess some people are haters no matter what evidence is given them. dont feel bad when you are down and need help we will still help you. who else will do that?
David Adams - this site is not USAOSNews.com
It is OSNews.com
It is not a US site.
Are the thousands of Japanese who died by means of the nuclear bomb worth less than the Americans?
Just had to respond to these.
- hiroshima nuke from usa
Only after days of dropping leaflets warning the people that it was coming. Yes this was tragic, but this was also at a time of war.
- embargo of all muslim countries from usa
We buy fuel from Muslim coutries, don't we?
- dessert storm from usa
You would rather have had let a homocidal maniac (Saddam) have his way?
- the killing of the natives from usa
Yup, big mistake in the past. We've made efforts to reconcile these actions.
- slavery of black people from usa
Sold to us by the black slave owners in Africa. Man, the majorty of the world's cultures accepted slavery at that time, why only blame the USA? If it wasn't for our great example of emancipation and the realization of civil liberties, I'm sure a lot of countries would still have slave ownership.
- vietnam war of usa
How is that even relavant?
- the payback and killing of nearly 5000 children and innocent people...
Yup, if innocent blood was shed, our government is as guilty as the terrorists who shed blood here.
But this rememberance of 9/11 here in the USA is not saying that our loss was more tragic than the loss of anyone else. Nor is it downplaying any of our past mistakes. And if you want to bring up all that instead, then your heart is in the wrong place. To all of those who say "please don't post this stuff here" and "let's keep it proffessional", fine if you don't want to mourn this day, but what right do you have to stop those of us who do??
Just skip over this post if you don't like it. Respect the feelings your fellow man, and let him remember his tragedies, even if you don't share his sorrow.
That's all....
Sept 11 was a truly horrible event, no matter how you look at. Utterly condemnable. I think we all agree on that one. My condolences to those who were affected.
That said, Americans seriously need to re-evaluate the way they do things. Americans are very nice people on the whole, but their government is a global bully. It is uncaring, ruthless, dictatorial, and totally self-centered. Through its policies, it inflicts tons of misery on millions of people outside the USA every single day. In my opinion, the current administration is as worse as it can ever get. Even europeans don't like americans much, public posturing notwithstanding.
Anyway, the first step to peace and security is to be in good terms with your neighbors. You cannot have security if you have so many people gunning after you.
and lets not forget over 500,000 Iraqui children killed directly as a result odf US foreign policy.
Let's not forget that the entire involvement in Iraq began with Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. Let us also not forget that the no-fly zones are the direct result of Saddam intentionally gassing his own people, let alone the attrocities he directed his army to commit directly during the Iran/Iraq war and the invasion of Kuwait. In all these cases the Iraqi citizens are innocent bystanders, however lets not forget who the true catalyst for these events were.
Yes, let us also remember that America is the only country to have used Nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, chosen apparantly because of their large populations. Let us mark the day that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed too. Why only the WTC?
We do mark the anniversary of Hiroshima, as well as Pearl Harbor. Let's also not forget the casualty estimates for a land invasion of Japan had the death toll in the millions on both sides. Compare that to the death toll from the two atomic bombs. I'd say its the lesser of two evils, an unfortunate one at that however.
Who in the world do you think that made the fundamentalists what they are today? Yes, the USA. As long they were murdering democratic nationalists ( who wanted to end a (neo) colonial regime), communists, unions people, teachers, and so on there was no problem.
Terrorist were trained, financed and protected by the US and they were called heroes (we all remember rambo3).
But now it came back as a boomerang. If you learnt someone how to make a bomb, please do not complain when they make them explode.
The only sad part is that no CIA or Al Qaida were killed, but civilians (in the USA and Afganistan) paid the price of dirty politics.
C.
Amen...lets stop funding all of these third world regimes. Something we should have stopped long ago. Lets instead fund the building up of the economies of legitimate governments throughout the world, and let the facisist, dictatorial and fundamentalist ones fall to the wayside. This has to be done across the board too however, so no funding from any of the western governments, china or russia either.
who are you to judge what people did in the past? they had options and picked the best in a time of WAR. people die in WARS. thats the way it happens.
Which GOD would that be? The christian god? the muslim god?
Sept. 11th boils down to 1 thing: the whole "my god is true
and your god is fake and you are evil" ideology that most
religions have. Maybe Sept. 11th wouldn't have had to happen
if everyone in this world who's religious would grow up and
drop the baggage of their outdated ridiculous ancient
superstitions. Religion != morality or goodness. At some
point we have to wake up and put away these childish things
for good. It's the 21st century for cripes sake. Ugh!
Hank
...and "Saddam" began with USA.
nice time to rethink the past and present "holy" (eye to eye) politics.
or the neverending spiral will continue forever.
----
P.S.: German is a good language.
"The Afganistans have a more positive future thanks to removing the extreme government that once persecuted them. You could always consider that the price paid by the 4000 afgans was a price to greater freedom for their children and their children's children.
You should look at all the afgans killed by their previous government, C."
With all respects my friend, who do you think that armed the fundamentalists in Afganistan?
Yes, the USA. Check the archives, the cia admits it.
C.
Yes, C, in attempts to make the world what we considered a better place we've done some pretty stupid things. They've come back to bite us many, many times. In that respect I think the government has done some bad things and in many ways we've paid the price for it.
But so many of those attempts resulted in the greater freedoms nearly *everyone* enjoys today. Instead of looking at specific cases to back your argument, why not look at the whole of our involvment in world politics?
The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were done under wartime operations. Yes, we were at war with Japan when we dropped the bombs. And for all of you who forget, remember Japan wasn't innocent themselves. Read your WW2 history on Manchuria, Pearl Harbor, and Unit 731 (anybody like vivisection?).
>>k think we all must ask ourselves what makes people get so fed up with the western culture to do such attacks. A part of the awnser can be obtained by seeing the relation Israel-Palestina. The Palestines are opressed. As a result: Desperate actions like suicide bombings. As I see it, desperate measures to get attention. Israel being a close allie of the US. . . <<
the palestinians want isreal GONE. isreal once offered to give them all they asked for truthfully and honestly. guess what arafat did? he walked out of the room! isreal has a right to the gaza and west bank PERIOD. read the bible. read the koran. both say the same about it. bible also predicts the current situation. and doesnt say it gets resolved either.
O.K. We have bound our wounds, mourned our dead, and taken steps to prevent these attacks in the future. The point of a terror attack is to disrupt our commerce, daily lives, and feeling of security. So to let them know how well it is working, buy a distant loved one a gift, fly there to deliver it in person, while enjoying the view of your beloved country from the tallest nearby building!
No matter what country your from, even if it has never had such an attack, taking time with a loved one to enjoy what you have is a thing we should all do more often.
Who in the world do you think that made the fundamentalists what they are today? Yes, the USA. As long they were murdering democratic nationalists ( who wanted to end a (neo) colonial regime), communists, unions people, teachers, and so on there was no problem.
Terrorist were trained, financed and protected by the US and they were called heroes
I actually agree with you for the most part on this. Too often in the past the US government has funded oppressive regimes out of political expedience. I would not lump democratic nationalists, "union people" and "teachers" into the same pile as "communists". During the cold war we tried to contain communism, which is why we would support regimes who claimed to be anti-communist instead of letting a potentially Soviet-sympathetic government to evolve. This was categorically wrong. We could have cared less about post-colonialism, since we never got into the colony thing much to begin with. (if for no other reason than we were late to the game).
The title of your post is a sad fact, history is cruel and has always been cruel. We should all concentrate on that, rather than try and beat up just on the US for its sore points throughout history. You would be hard pressed to name a single country or civilization that does not have its share of attrocities and short comings.
They did finish inspections.
The claims of mass destruction weapons are 'pathetic'.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/middle_east/2243627.stm
Is Iraq a threat to America... or Israel?
"""Yes, let us also remember that America is the only country to have used Nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, chosen apparantly because of their large populations."""
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they _weren't_ excessively populated by civilians. Both had already been firebombed and a good chunk of civilian population had already moved away from the city. If the targets were picked purely to kill people, they would've been more along the lines of Kyoto and Yokohama. That doesn't make it right, but the bombing of Dresden was worse and far less justified and did almost nothing to end the War.
OSNews began this thread. So, it is part of OS News.
Today is a good day to remember all who have died due to violence and war. Apparantly, the government of my country, the USA, is incapable of responding to an event like 9/11 except to increase the violence and killing. That saddens me greatly. And the government's pounding the war drums relentlessly now. I fear the violence and death has only just begun.
I also think we can take some time to remember that computer operating systems, the object of our enthusiasm, are used as weapons to kill in both modern warfare and terrorism. They were not intended for that but, like all technology, ends up as a tool of death and destruction. We do live in a global village now. To go bomb some other country is like me, here in Ohio, going over and bombing my neighbors in Indiana. All violence and war is irrational. Yet still we persist in it. No country or people are innocent. Everywhere in the world, human beings kill each other. It is insane.
I have the memorial at Shanksville on TV. It was very nice, quiet, meditative, but then Bush got up and started pounding the drums...it never ends.
Chile: 30 000 people dead
Argentina: 100 000 people dead
Their crime? They voted for a regime that someone in Washinton didn't like. What freedom are we talking about.
The USA government talks only of freedom when they can exploit that nation. What freedom do they talk about when the nations them self can not forge their own future with the approval of Uncle Sam (and the multinational?).
I'm an historian and can give you many many examples. What right has the USA to stick his head everywhere en kill thousands or thousands (check the history of Latin America from the 1970 until now).
Sorry, freedom is a very relative word. The real qwestion is freedom for whom.
C.
"who are you to judge what people did in the past? they had options and picked the best in a time of WAR. people die in WARS. thats the way it happens."
Heheheh... Don't Al-Qaida say that they are at WAR with America?
Isn't it just that the 'terrorist' lacks the air force, but has the bomb?
The Iraqi issue is a personal one. Practically everybody outside the US, and a lot of sensible people inside it, do not see any need for a war. I guess the Bush family has a score to settle against Sadam as a person. They are willing to kill thousands of Iraqi people - yes, we already know thousands will be dead if there is a war - to settle a personal score against one man.
And of course, there is the all-important Oil. Sure Iraq did invade Kuwait, but was that the first time one nation invaded another?
there will be never a justification for hiroshima and nagasaki.
don't write shit!
---
P.S.: And german is still a good language.
...To go bomb some other country is like me, here in Ohio, going over and bombing my neighbors in Indiana. All violence and war is irrational. Yet still we persist in it. No country or people are innocent. Everywhere in the world, human beings kill each other. It is insane.
I have the memorial at Shanksville on TV. It was very nice, quiet, meditative, but then Bush got up and started pounding the drums...it never ends.
I agree this whole thing is stupid. The final solution is to eliminate al Qaeda and all its funding and make sure Saddam doesn't have weapons of mass destruction. We don't necessarily need a war to do that. After that we should seek to eliminate all theocratic governments throughout the world. In the last 20 years, most wars have been fought on the grounds of the government's religion than anything else.
That also means dismantling modern Israel as well. Since the international community made it, we can take it down too. Replace the government of the entire Israel/Palestine area with a purely secular government which truly honors religious freedom, and rename the country to something that sounds nothing like Israel or Palestine or to a combination of the two names.
If we had time, we could also stop all economic activities to all areas with oppresive, dictatorial governments, but as I said earlier, no one really cares about that unless their country's self interest is involved (the US is not the only one).
That's exactly it, Hank, and one of the places where our government is really corrupt. Your posts have been really excellent and well-balanced in my opinion.
Xian, gotta agree. My great-uncle was on a Japanese slave ship bound for Japan in WWII. He had survived the Battaan death march and severe torture. They were shipping him overseas to become a slave. When a US warship torpedoed the slave ship, the Japanese soldiers cut off the ladders that would have allowed my great-uncle and the other prisoners to at least escape the ship from the cargo holds. Instead the soldiers made sure that no one escaped alive. We paid restitutions to the Japanese held in internment camps. How much restitution did the Japanese governments pay for the slaves they made out of US soldiers?
This is not a rant against the Japanese. That war is over with (thank God) and both sides have, for the most part, gotten over it. But every country has a dark spot against it, including the US. It just seems that sometimes people from other countries want to make the US the whipping boy for all that's bad in the world.
Sometimes things done with the best intentions backfire. If the USSR had been allowed to take Afganistan (without us helping Afgani rebels repel them) the Afgani people would be worse off than they are now. Granted, we should have continued to help them after the Soviet Union gave up. Nevertheless, we gave them the opportunity to set their own direction after the Soviets left. It amazes me how they've turned on us.
>>Which GOD would that be? The christian god? the muslim god?
Sept. 11th boils down to 1 thing: the whole "my god is true
and your god is fake and you are evil" ideology that most
religions have. Maybe Sept. 11th wouldn't have had to happen
if everyone in this world who's religious would grow up and
drop the baggage of their outdated ridiculous ancient
superstitions. Religion != morality or goodness. At some
point we have to wake up and put away these childish things
for good. It's the 21st century for cripes sake. Ugh!<<
bah!
being religious doesnt mean anything. when you know God (christian there is no other 
. you wont be calling people evil just because they dont know Him (and yes God defines himself as Male).
as if science has been any less cruel. wasnt it evolutionists that said africans were subhuman? apemen? wasnt it them that said the famines in the 80's should be left to run their course? how sick and cruel!
There is no morality without God only lawlessness.
There is a lot of discussion about the USA and though I'm very tempted to give my opinion on the USA, we shouldn't be talking about that.
What happened is that a lot of innocent people died without any reason and without any profit for anyone. I feel compassion for the families and friends of the people who died (in the USA and Afghanistan) and wish the best for everyone that is affected.
Mike: There's nothing wrong with religion, even when it says there can be only one God. The question is: how do you treat people that have a different opinion on that subject. (I admit most religions have had very bad times as to how they treat other religions.)
I'm sure God has had enough of what we do to each other.
What did the US actually do in Yugoslavia?
...religion is the number one of human sicknesses.
it kills, it weaks, it destroys humanity, ...
and lets people (or the fu***ing pope) manipulate you (or your neighboor?!?).
so please pay attention.
---
P.S. do
>>Heheheh... Don't Al-Qaida say that they are at WAR with America?
Isn't it just that the 'terrorist' lacks the air force, but has the bomb?<<
yes i agree. and they should expect their bodies to be piling up too. just remember they fired the first shot.
I wasn't affected by the terrorist attacks on the USA 1 year ago
I wasn't affected by the US military actions springing from it.
But we will all be affected by the world now being created. Stop the killing now.
The US is following out a self-fulfilling prophecy - ObL portrayed it as a monster which supported Israel unconditionally and posed a risk to Muslims. No action taken since 11 Sep 01 has dispelled these rumours.
More deaths. More destruction. More hatred. This could go on for a very long time.
The US faces enemies who do not share western values. They won't go away if you kill them either, like Kenobi they will only become more powerful. The only way to protect the safety of US citizens is to be bigger than they are, and turn the other cheek.
I am a UK citizen - thanks to the gutlessness of UK premier Tony Blair we face being drawn into your dirty, illegal wars. You;re putting my country in danger as well now.
I agree, rememberance is one thing, but a media circus is another...I am attempting to get through the whole day without so much as looking at my TV, going to non tech news sites, and pretty much ignoring the mass media, because I don't feel like dealing with it. I'd rather quietly remember a person that was spared (my gf's father, who had a cancelled meeting in the WTC that day) and a fallen brother of my fraternity who was an eagle scout, was instrumental in the founding of my chapter at albany, and is survived by a wife and 2 sons. I think that quiet remembrance of that is worth much more than all the media can do....ever.
alpha phi omega, leadership friendship and service. http://www.apo.org
>>The question is: how do you treat people that have a different opinion on that subject.<<
i agree. is better to love even your enemies than to hate.
sometimes i think if i saw osama i could forgive him. if he kills me in the process, oh well, the rewards would be greater than revenge.
The United States is far from perfect. I agree that they *generally* have good intentions, but good intentions cannot justify evil actions, or a bad foreign policy.
Humanity as a whole has made some progress towards freedom and enlightenment, but there is much more to go before we reach those goals, or even full understanding of those concepts. The U.S. will find out the hard way that you cannot protect freedom by restricting freedom. Freedom and safety are not two separate values that need to be balanced, but two complementary values that go hand-in-hand. Restricting freedom and individual rights puts American citizens at greater risk, not less.
Personally, all this patriotic crap makes me ill. Are people being "patriotic" to a worthless piece of cloth (i.e. nationalistic), or are they really patriotic to the ideals of freedom and equality that the U.S. flag is supposed to stand for? I would hope that it's the latter, but it is obviously not for some people.
fdf,
I didn't mean the German language was bad, just that it would be bad to be under the rule of the "Third Reich" ( did I spell that correctly?)
I would like to insert a few of my thoughts on the previuos statements.
1.) USA drops bombs on Japan. Yes this was one motherf*cker of a bomb, and killed and ruined a exceptionally huge amount of live, however, it was after the Germans had surrendered and our forces and the allied forces were getting tired. President Harry S. Truman, did not want to see more American lives lost. There are some estamites that we would have killed more lives if we hadn't dropped the bomb because the Japenese didn't have a comprable ground force, and the Japenese would not surrender (the whole die for honor and country thing). We did it to END a huge war, not start one.
2.) What f*cking embargo? We have trade with Saudia Arabia (although my personal belief is they will screw us over big time soon). We have trade with Pakistan. Can't think of too many others, well, because they don't have a damn thing we want, they are mostly 3rd world sone age countries...
3.) Desert Storm. That was actually a pretty cool war. Iraq had the 3rd largest army at the time in the world, and we reduced it to nothing in about 42 days. I think I read somewhere that Iraq had on the order of 5-7 Million troops, after the war Iraq only had like 300,000. Anyway, back to the point, Iraq hostily invaded Kuwait, and probably would have tried marching to Isreal.
4.)The killing of natives. Yes this was a bad thing the europeans did (remember most natives were killed prior to the English colonies, and Spain actually MURDERED the most.) O.K. More natives were DIRECTLY KILLED by NATIVES, however, the EUROPEANS influenced the tribes to fight, and supplied guns and horses. There are estamistes that there were around 45 Million Natives in N. and Central America at the time Columbus came, the largest, was in Mexico City where there were roughly 20 Million people, most all were killed by rival tribes, who recieved guns from Spain, and the remaining were killed by Spain.
5.) At the time slavery was nearly universally accepted. The mindset of the Europeans who started the Slave Triangle was that blacks were truly inferior humans, just above an animal, of course modern science can prove this wrong, but they actually BELIEVED that they were not doing anything wrong.
6.)Vietnam. Please, we lost close to 55,000 American, I don't want to hear this weak argument, pluse, we were trying to rid the region of communism.
7.) 5,000 afghan dead from US bombs. But gues what, 5,000 lost and Millions now have freedom...women can finally go to school, and work. I saw a clip on CNN or MSNBC in Kabul, a student at the University (which was previously closed) said, "Thank you your Majesty Presiden Bush." Now thats pretty powerful and convicing to me about the GOOD we have done in that f*cked up region.
8.) Israel (sp?). The US relations with Israel IS religiuos, the bible describes the creation of the Israel state, (1967), which was backed by the US. The bible also describes that in the end the WORLD will be in a war against Israel and it's ONE ALLIE (sp?), the US is the only allie of Irael...could recent events maybe setting the stage for Revelations???? Just some food for thought.
I used to work in the World Financial Center's South Tower. A building right next to the World Trade Center. Fortunately I took that day off.
I had about a dozen friends who worked on the 85th floor of the World Trade Center, fortunately they all made it out and are alive today.
I guess I'm a very lucky guy with very luck friends...
I walk by ground zero sometimes, a lot of progress has been made etc...
Peace
yc
Israel (sp?). The US relations with Israel IS religiuos, the bible describes the creation of the Israel state, (1967), which was backed by the US. The bible also describes that in the end the WORLD will be in a war against Israel and it's ONE ALLIE (sp?), the US is the only allie of Irael...could recent events maybe setting the stage for Revelations???? Just some food for thought.
Please! This makes as much sense as that Muslim cleric saying that the Koran predicts the fall of the US in 2004. It's people's belief like this that leads to the oppresion of people because of their religion.
Working with your assumption, that means we can prevent the world from ending by having the US stop being an ally of Israel. Then your prophecy disintegrates and I guess Jesus can't come back again. See how much sense this whole argument makes?
I'm tired of all of this anti-American bullshit floating around everywhere. Ingrates.
Here's the facts:
If you live in Western Europe - The ONLY reason you are not speaking German today is because AMERICAN soldiers, with *minimal* help from what remained of your pathetic armies (who fled as fast as they could from the German Blitzkrieg). Those Soldiers, AMERICAN or other, used bullets made in AMERICAN factories, fired from AMERICAN guns, perched atop AMERICAN tanks, jeeps, trucks, and planes. AMERICAN bombs leveled the cities of your German Masters, so that AMERICANS, and their AMERICAN-supplied allies could defeat Germany.
After the war, you and/or your families were supplied with AMERICAN grown food, and your entire economic infrastructure were rebuilt with AMERICAN money.
During the cold war, your pathetic governements were financially supported with aid from AMERICA, and your meager armed forces were greatly supplemented with AMERICAN troops to protect you from the Soviet Union and her sattelites. Those AMERICAN troops spent AMERICAN dollars in your pathetic countries to further enhance and stimulate your economies.
The majority of you are welcomed by me to go fuck yourselves. When your pathetic countries have a problem, I'm sure they will come running to AMERICA, as they have for nearly the last hundred years. God can only hope that someone here will remember the sentiments of the people of your nations, and say no to you the next time your pathetic nations need help.
In retrospect, we should have left Europe a pile of rubble, or at the very least made every country a territory of the United States. Oh, wait - you pretty much are.
Bite Me. (and edit if you must)
I only said that we are the only ally of Israel right now, things could change and another country could be the ally of God's choosen people, but I kink of doubt it.
You conveniently forget that Adolf Hitlers armies withdrew from the embarkation points for the invasion of England some months before Pearl Harbour and the entry of the US into WW2
We acknowledge without quibble that the destroyers and materials provided under Lend-Lease were invaluable however these materials were SOLD to the UK and we had to repay in full. Roosevelt was clearly in support of us but didn't commit full scale til' after Pearl Harbour.
The UK is a friend of the US - the primary duty of friends is to be wise counsel - especially when they believe that something is WRONG.
Well said. I agree completely.
"That was actually a pretty cool war"
I'd like to know, what exactly is a cool war ?
"Iraq had the 3rd largest army at the time in the world, and we reduced it to nothing in about 42 days. I think I read somewhere that Iraq had on the order of 5-7 Million troops"
Well, you must have read bellicist propaganda. Iraq has never had the third army in the world, that's bullshit. Think : USA, Russia, China, France... that's already more than three countries.
Hell yeah!
You know it just occured to be that more advancement in scinece, math, medicine, philantropy (i misspelled that one), technology, government, and just about any other subject you can think of since the creation of the United States of America. Think about it the airplane, the automible, the nuclear bomb and other nuclear uses, the electronic computer (the englishman Charles Babbage designed the first mechanical computer- not counting the abucus). You know, if it weren't for the good ol' USA all jackasses in Europe and Asia, and especially the middle East would still be walkin around shooting everybody up, what inhumane barbarism.
1.) USA drops bombs on Japan. ... . President Harry S. Truman, did not want to see more American lives lost. ...
Yes. American lives. That's why he destroyes to the ground to CITIES where CIVILIANS lived. Oh yes, massmurder to spare AMERICAN lives. Please ...
2.) What f*cking embargo? ...
The one that's responably for the dead of 300 000 iraqui children.
3.) Desert Storm. That was actually a pretty cool war.
... Iraq hostily invaded Kuwait, and probably would have tried marching to Isreal.
A damn pretty war if you watched on cnn. Please don't be ignorant. Innocent people were killed. And yes, I can write an essay on kuweit if you want me to (tip: Iraq province that were stolen by british petrol because there was lot of oil).
4.)The killing of natives. Yes this was a bad thing the europeans did. ... . There are estamistes that there were around 45 Million Natives in N. and Central America at the time Columbus came, the largest, was in Mexico City where there were roughly 20 Million people, most all were killed by rival tribes, who recieved guns from Spain, and the remaining were killed by Spain.
As matter of fact there were 100 and only 10% survived.
5.) At the time slavery was nearly universally accepted. ...
Peep, Wrong. It wansn't universally accepted and many people were opposed. But slavery meant lots of money, like drugs and wapons (nr 1 and 2 trade today) are nowadays.
6.)Vietnam. Please, we lost close to 55,000 American, I don't want to hear this weak argument, pluse, we were trying to rid the region of communism.
What gives the USA the right to go around the world killing thousands of people because they want to give THEIR nation an other direction. The USA soldiers were killed by the population that defend themself from the invation. The soldiers shouldn't have been there in the first place. The sad part: boys get killed while suits became riched by selling arms ...
7.) 5,000 afghan dead from US bombs. But gues what, 5,000 lost and Millions now have freedom...women can finally go to school, and work. ...
Al Qaida says the same about the 3500 usa citizens that were murdered. For the record: the USA put the fundamentalist in power in Afganistan. Wether you din't knew that or you're very cynical.
8.) Israel (sp?). The US relations with Israel IS religiuos, the bible describes the creation of the Israel state, (1967), which was backed by the US. The bible also describes that in the end the WORLD will be in a war against Israel and it's ONE ALLIE (sp?), the US is the only allie of Irael...could recent events maybe setting the stage for Revelations???? Just some food for thought.
Lol. The bible. So you think that all non christian should been stoned. I don't mind if you use the bible in your personal live, but using the "holy" book to justify the massacres of Israeli soldiers ...
C.
No, the the Third Best, THE THIRD LARGEST! Read the whole sentence and you would know that.
"You know, if it weren't for the good ol' USA all jackasses in Europe and Asia, and especially the middle East would still be walkin around shooting everybody up, what inhumane barbarism. "
Hmm... Really? Especially since the Arabs laid the foundation of modern mathematics? They 'invented' the concept of zero, without which, no binary, without which, no cpmputers?
Your reasoning is quite poor..
Some of you said: " I don't want my children to live in fear". So are a lot of children's in country considered as "Outlaw" by USA alone.
Who remember the poor Kuweitian girst, telling to the media how she was raped by Iraki soldiers, and the baby taken out of a safe place on hospital, after Irak invaded Kuwait?
Bush recalled this 3 times when he asked to the gov money for the war. And now, it is known that these fact were invented by "Hill and Knowlton", a "information" agency...
Was Bush manipulated, or did he asked the media to be manipulated?
Similar things could be said about the Serbia bonbing, where USA, and NATO, acted without the UNO permission.
How many childrens around the globe are afraid of USA bonbing?
In Rwanda, CIA warned that if USA soldiers left the country, there will be a big massacre. The soldiers left, and the massacre was done.
What do you think about the embargo ove Cuba? Castro wanted to free Cuba from some big USA industry. It's only when USA really tried to isolate Cuba that he was forced to turn to the soviet.
"Practically everybody outside the US, and a lot of sensible people inside it, do not see any need for a war"
Completely false. Saddam Hussein was involved to some extent in the Sept 11 attacks. It has been confirmed that he met with Atta before the attack, and he has been linked financially to Al Qaeda. Not to mention the fact that he has killed millions of his own people by using chemical and biological weapons. Add to this the fact that he is strongly persuing nuclear weapons, and there is no doubt that he plans to use them when he gets them. Sitting around and doing nothing about it would be a grave mistake for the US and the world as a whole.
And to all of the anti-american posts, all I can say is that you owe the US a debt a gratitude for our contributions.
-G
Hmm... Really? Especially since the Arabs laid the foundation of modern mathematics? They 'invented' the concept of zero, without which, no binary, without which, no cpmputers?
The concept of zero that you are speaking about has nothing to do with the binary number system. We've had different numerical bases before the concept of zero, binary included. The power of the concept of zero goes far beyond the symbol, and we really take the whole concept for granted today. Furthermore the invention of zero actually has a rather windy and convoluted history, and wasn't simply invented by ancient arab scholars, although they played a very large part. A great book an this is titled The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero by Robert Kaplan. This is very informative but also very dry.
Let us also remember that human technology has gone through many great explosions. We shoudn't negate the contributions to technology, language, art and the sciences from all the great civilizations of history: Egypt, China, Greece, Rome and far many more.
"And to all of the anti-american posts, all I can say is that you owe the US a debt a gratitude for our contributions".
You know what's really sad? 11th september. A lot of people see that as pay back time. Guess why.
Very sad and even more sad: understandable 
C.
Ralf,
I think you are missing the point. The point is to remember innocent people that were butchered by barbarians. It is a sentiment that should be extended to more not less incidents.
Yes US policy is not perferct but in the grand scope of things, it is a lot better then previous world powers
You forget that colonialism was driven from the world with great help from the US. That is right. The US put enormous pressure on the Europeans, mainly french and british, to free their colonies after WW II. Those colonies include most modern day arab nations.
You want poor policy. Why not mention iraqi murder of kurds, with chemical weapons. Why not talk about the turkish who tried to exterminate the Armenians. how about the packistani/bangladesh genocide of hindus. Why not mention that in sudan the nothern-based muslims are commiting a holocaust against the christians. Do you want more? How about what the Russians are doing this moment in Chechyna? Have you ever read about Syria's reaction to its domestic terrorist problem? They leveled cities and killed thousands. How about japanese actions in their occupied terrorities during WW II. Do you think the japanese were nice and friendly to the chinese? Think again.
You seem also to forget that the US helped bring down the horrible regimes in Germany, Italy, and Japan. The US funded the rebuilding of Europe after WW II. The US also kept the rather cruel Communist regime of the USSR in check for the last 50 years and helped drive the Russians from afghanistan. The US saved countless muslims from ethnic cleansing in the balkans. The US tried to help bring order to somalia so that food could be delivered. The US is the prime funder of the United Nations. The US gives countless billions to help developing nations through the world monetary fund and in direct aid to places like Egypt.The US makes humanitarian food drops to help the starving in afghanistan.
Is there room for improvement? Yes. But you really need to get a clue.
>>You conveniently forget that Adolf Hitlers armies withdrew from the embarkation points for the invasion of England some months before Pearl Harbour and the entry of the US into WW2<<
Yes, for the Invasion of Russia. The Germans (incorrectly) assumed that peace would eventually ensue between Britain and Germany.
Sorry for the personal question.
Have you ever been outside the US? That the only explanation I can think of if you believe what you are saying.
C.
"You know what's really sad? 11th september. A lot of people see that as pay back time. Guess why.
Very sad and even more sad: understandable "
The problem, C, is that not "a lot of people" saw that as payback. A lot of people (the majority) saw that as an unjustifyable act. Period.
What's very sad is that your blinders must be permanently attached to your head. Open your eyes and look at the whole picture.
It's fairly funny that all the europeans are talking trash in here. Wake up, what were the crusades? who fought it and where? As far as all of you being a bunch of peace loving tree huggers just stop. You came up with the death penalty and torture. Every country there had no problem invading and taking land for itself in the new world along with slaughtering anyone who got in the way.
What happened on 9/11 was unthinkable and everyone in the world should pay their respects. Because if you don't and just think it a problem for america then your gonna be next. They will always find someone else to hate, it's the nature of the beast.
To all the other posters here who gave praise to america god bless.
To everyone else, kiss my ass!!!!
I do not condone the actions of either my government in many situations (I'm a US citizen) nor do I condone such a callous attack on civilians -- from any source.
I spent my 9/11 with an instructor at our school lounge who is an ex-marine. The look on his face was sheer horror. "This is going to get messy", he said. I couldn't agree more.
I live by the Pittsburgh International Airport, walking out into the sunny blue-skyed afternoon, looking up, and hearing the erie silence is something I'll never forget. At any given point in time prior to 9/11 there were at least 3 planes you could see in the sky, and almost always a hum from plan engines in the air.
It is my personal belief that 9/11 has become the government and medias little play-thing. They'll use this to further their own greedy agendas as long as the public allows them to. The thing that scares me is how blind the US public is to the manipulation that is taking place.
To the Poster of the story, your wife's concern that CNN may have been a target was completely off-target. The MEDIA is a terrorists #1 weapon, physical attacks are #2.
Personally, I'm growing sick from the massive amounts of for lack of a better word I'll call propaganda that is spewing into american homes. Suddenly, it's us vs. the world. Either join with us or die! I don't buy it.
The internet has definately helped me to view the world as the world, not just the US and everyone else.
I don't think Mandella had it right, although I respect him greatly. It's not the US that's the greatest threat, it's nationalism. Check your history books - high nationalism == war.
I was not alive durning Vietnam, no one consulted me about the Gulf war, I in no way authorized an embargo against Iraq, I had _nothing_ to do with those. I wasn't even able to vote when those things took place. Don't try to make me pay for the mistakes made by people I've never met, and for situations I had no contol over.
First of all let me just say that ofcourse it is a tradigy for all the people in WTC that say, and a big good going to all the firefighters and policemen etc. who helped out that day,but....
Lets not get all caught up in the idea that US is the good guys and osama the bad guy. Nothing is ever that black and white.
USA has done some real nasty things in its past and continues to do so....
So lets set some things straight:
* there is only 2 Ground Zeros and that is HIROSHIMA and NAGASAKI. please don't try and generate sympathy votes by using that name in vanity.
* 3500 is a fairly low number, if measured against the innocent lives that the us has taken in its quest for money and power. lets do some math:
-- Hiroshima: at least 300.000 people dead because the usa could not wait a couple of weeks to win the war.
-- Nagasaki: at least 300.000 dead because the usa could not wait a couple of weeks to win the war.
-- Irak: 500.000 CHILDREN killed for the sake of cheap oil and revenge (we all remember the 60. minutes interview)
-- Afganistan: several thousands civilians dead because of "stray" bombs and "mis"information.
-- All the native amaricans
-- All the black slaves.
* The US continues to behave badly not only against others but also against itself
-- By fighting the kyoto agreement, the Bush administration has clearly told the world that it does not care about the environment.One thing is potical opinions, but running away from past promisses is called laying and cheting...
-- This "War against teorism" is plainly a cover for revenge and non-resional thinking. Not only does is an innocent country attacked, but any POW are declared not-POW so that they have no chance of a fair trial
-- In the cover from "War against Teorism" bush seeks finish Saddam. This is mainly a matter of pried as this is something they failed at the last time, and moreover it is completly irrational since it would leave that part of the world in caos.
When thinking about the teorist in the planes remember this: ONE MANS TEORIST IS ANOTHER MANS FREEDOM FIGTHER.
"Have you ever been outside the US? That the only explanation I can think of if you believe what you are saying."
In fact, i am the son of a european and travel there frequently as well as to south america. The problem here is that some of us know history and some do not.
My point is simple, the US has done some horrible things which should be corrected. There is room for much improvement particularly towards the middle east. I am particularly disturbed by the impact of US corporations upon the developing world (read slave labor) and think Gw's war on Iraq is really an oil grab. In fact oil companies in general have entirely too much influence and the US has not defened human rights enough. US pollution is also a major problem, the US after all creates most of the worlds pollution.
However, the US has done some very kind things as well. mention both and understand the context of why some of those horrible things were done.
The other point is that the alternatives to US world leadership have proven to be worse or perhaps you'd like to live under a world dominated by the mullahs in iran or the wonderful government of china. Wait no you must want to live under Russian rule. Try out chechyna why don't you. As for the European Union. i find it interesting that they sat back and did very little to stop genocide in teh balkans. That is the second time they've let genocide pass with little action. Kind or makes you wonder about them Europeans.
The point is simple. The US is not all bad nor is it all good but look at the whole picture.
Old invalid points we have already covered, p.s. we'll kick your ass too, then sit down to huge banquet of food, and probable won't even eat it all. refer to section 61-75 for rebuttle against your arguments.
>>and lets not forget over 500,000 Iraqui children killed directly as a result odf US foreign policy. <<
1. What did Saddam do for these 1/2 million children? He doesn't seem to be going without. What did Saddam do about the people in Kuwait?
2. Japan attacked the U.S. not the other way around. When you pick a fight, be prepared for the worst.
3. The U.S. is the center of the world for many of us. If you have your own tragedy to remember, then by all means setup a memorial for it and let us all post comments. The people here at OSNEWS are free to acknowledge what they want. They can't be expected to wash the laundry for the entirity of human history.
4. I think the U.S. is being extremely restrained. We should start keeping the lands we have to fight in! Like other countries have and would.
I'm gonna single you out but their are other posters who have made similiar false comments about america dropping the bomb. Let's just get it straight once and for all. If it wasn't for the SNEAK ATTACK on perl harbor and the fanatical way in which the japs fought to the death then maybe we wouldn't have dropped the bomb. BUT that was almost 50yrs ago and since niether you nor I was alive you can't make a judgement on it. NOONE knew at the time what the bomb would really do except for a select few in the government. So deal with it, it was one of the best moves this country has ever done.
ha
> 2. Japan attacked the U.S. not the other way around. When you pick a fight, be prepared for the worst.
Recent discoveries on US submarines might prove you wrong there, but ofcurse that nothing the us will tell you freely..
Well a few things:
* Recent discoveries of us subs, may prove that the us was planning to attack first.
* Histori lessons has taught me that, the US would have won maybe 1-2 month later, so there was no need to throw the bomb
* If tyhere were need, then I am sure japan would surender after only 1 bomb, no need to throw 2
* Correct that very few knew the effects of the bomb, but the ones making the decision knew!! At was tested...
* If you really think that it was one of the best moves the US has made, then i rather surender to hitler or taliban.
"The U.S. is the center of the world for many of us"
As they say... "Give us a break!"
First of all, on this, the anniversary of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, I would like to express my condolences to the people of the world who lost loved ones during these attacks.
To comment on the evilness of America. Yes, there is evil in the US. I think our government is corrupt and no longer serves the people as it is supposed to (having become subserviant to large corporations and personal greed and being drunk with power).
However, in general, the people of the US are good people and the US does help other countries of the world quite a bit. I also find most of the world, and interestingly enough mostly the people who have recieved the most help from us, to be completely ingrateful for all that the US has done for them.
Sixty years ago, when Europe needed help, the US sent aid to countries like England and France. Once Japan drug us into the war, we sent soldiers over, my grandfather included, to Europe and won the war against tyranny for the victim countries there. We could have just fought with Japan, but we didn't. We helped our friends.
Now, when we are the target, France (who haven't had a military victory in over 100 years) and England, who are supposed to be our friends; puss out. What I'm seeing from Europe now is nothing but snobbery and a ripe bunch of poltroons.
In my opinion, the US doesn't need Europe involved if we go after Saddam. They are insignificant at this point. Their help is welcome, but not neccessary.
Finally, there have been several religous remarks as well as anti-religious remarks. All I can say, is that if the people talking about the Bible's prophecies are correct, then I'm going to go stand in the crowd that is pro-Israel. As I understand it, the term from the Bible, "Lord of Hosts" actually means "God of War". If that's the case, I want to be on the winning side.
""Have you ever been outside the US? That the only explanation I can think of if you believe what you are saying."
In fact, i am the son of a european and travel there frequently as well as to south america. The problem here is that some of us know history and some do not."
Lol. I have a master degree in history. Funny that you mention it.
"In fact, i am the son of a european and travel there frequently as well as to south america."
I hope you talked there with the families of the thousands of people that were turtured or murdered over they by a regime that was put in power by the USA.
Oh yes, I speak spanish and lived under the fascist regime of Pinochet (put into power by the USA). Yes, I know what I'm talking about. Sadly enough (If I may recall you 30 000 people "disappered" in Chile en even 100 000 in Argentina. Oh yes, I can talk to you about Brazil, Peru, Bolivia, etc.).
The point is simple. The US is not all bad nor is it all good but look at the whole picture.
I do, that's why I learnt when studying to become an historian. That's why I don't hate or blame USA citizens and believe there's a lot of great things in that country. I'm no racist nor narrow minded, as matter of fact I have friend in the USA.
However closing my eyes to the attrocities of the USA *government* isn't an option. I hope one day most USA citizens will realize cnn just tells lies and what your wanted to hear when at the same time people suffer from USA intervention (militar, economic or secret).
Regards and strength in those difficult times ( that's what I would said to the afgans too trying to cope with the massacre of 4000 people)
C.
Regards,
C.
> Old invalid points we have already covered, p.s.
> we'll kick your ass too, then sit down to huge
> banquet of food, and probable won't even eat
> it all. refer to section 61-75 for rebuttle
> against your arguments.
I have read the comments in sections 61-75, and have found little more than whining about "please don't ruin our propagada".
please dont remind us of vietnam, we lost 50.000 men trying to invade another country.
Oh, and lets not forget the quest against communisiem, which was part of the reason for the vietnam (thank god you lost that one)
BTW: please try and kick my ass if you like, and lets see if you amount to more than parades and showtunes.
Ummm... the US didn't drop both bombs at the same time. The Japanese could have surrendered before the second bomb.
And those 'discoveries' were pre-planning. Right now the US has plans for attacks on Russia, China, Iraq, and I'm sure some of our Allies as well. There are teams that constantly run scenarios and create plans whether we're in a war, close to being in a war, or in flat-out peace. There are people in the military that run nothing but war scenarios for a living. That's been going on forever. It's why we have a prepared military.
History might teach you that the Japanese would have surrendered, but understanding the warrior culture of the generals in charge at the time would have given you more accurate insight. They would not have surrendered unless we did what we did.
Again, please learn all sides of the story before jumping to conclusions.
To all those people who say that everyone owes the US:
Don't forget that we wouldn't have won our independence from England without the help of France...YES, FRANCE. No one likes france. But everyone should kiss france's ass, by your logic, because they were instrumental in a war like 8 bajillion years ago.
Countries change. This isn't the u.s. that won WW2. This is the u.s. that supported the Shah of Iran. How was that even any of our business?
Maybe next election the u.s. might vote in someone based on his politics, rather than just letting the media decide for them.
Media and religion are the real evils here.
-concerned
BTW, we weren't trying to take over Viet Nam. That was our problem. We were 'policing' and not allowed (by our own military) to gain ground. That's why we lost so many people and why we never won.
ok let's review:
1) Recent discoveries of us subs, may prove that the us was planning to attack first.
(The discovery you are talking about is a JAP sub found off the coast of hawaii, it was believed to be the first shot fired in the pacific from america, Get your facts straight. Oh btw way if you really want to get facts right why not read "A World at Arms: A global history of World War II" by Gerhard L. Weinberg. Read that and then well talk.
2) Histori lessons has taught me that, the US would have won maybe 1-2 month later, so there was no need to throw the bomb
(Above book will really explain how it was gonna take @ least 8 months to yr+ to finish it off. An it wasn't just gonna be americans, limes, frogs, and russians)
3) If tyhere were need, then I am sure japan would surender after only 1 bomb, no need to throw 2
(Payback is a bitch isn't it?, should have thought about that before a sneak attack on a sunday morning during peace time whill having there ambassadors negotiating a peace with the usa)
4) If you really think that it was one of the best moves the US has made blah blah blah
(well since I'm a nuclear engineer, enough said.)
Get your facts correct, if it wasn't for the USA then democracy as we know it today would be gone. The reason your able to vote today in what ever country your in in is because of us.
"BTW, we weren't trying to take over Viet Nam. That was our problem. We were 'policing' and not allowed (by our own military) to gain ground. That's why we lost so many people and why we never won."
A police force of 300 000 soldiers? Plains "raining" agent orange to kill the ground (kids are still born with handicaps because of this)? 100000's dead viatnemese on a police action?
Please! Live with it. A poor country kicked the ass of the biggest power on earth like David killed Goliath. How many films does Holliwood need to make to try to change the history and get over this trauma?
C.
the us really loves democracy, huh?
like the puppet regimes it supports in afghanistan, pakistan, saudi etc. etc.
don't forget the barfed coup attempt in venezuela either...
Okay, C. You'll believe what you want to believe. From now on I'll just let you prove your own ignorance...
From someone with friends and relatives in Venezuela, I gotta say you're wrong about that.
"like David killed Goliath"?
China beat us in Vietnam. I wouldn't describe China as David.
And we were there because people there asked for our help.
Some of those people were the people of france. It wasn't just the US doing its own thing that time. France had helped another people fighting for freedom that asked for help - the US. We saw vietnam as fighting the same battle we had 200 years earlier.
Vietnam was actually one of the most justified wars we have had. It just was doomed to failure because of politics.
-c.u.s.c.
It also bothers me that King Bush doesn't feel that he needs Congress's permission to declare "war" on another country.
Who does he think he is?
-cusc
if you just stop messing about in other people's countries, maybe the 'terrorists' will go home?
I tried to read this thread... Sorry, I couln't go any further... It made me sick to see how stupid people are, knowing nothing about history or the world around them...
Don't you know that the truth is different from the justice?
When I see posts like "without americans, all of you would be speaking german" I have to go and vomit... And americans still wonder why people dislike them... Why don't you all go and read something, try to understand humankind and its history, and then get back... But now, maybe you are too stupid to understand simple things...
So many of you are venting your opinions about what happened in the past, your dislike for certain governments, etc. Day's like today should be devoted to how war, killing and destruction can be avoided, how peaceful resolutions to conflicts can be achieved, how war achieves nothing but death, disease, misery and destruction. In fact, every day should be devoted to that.
Those of us in the USA, it would be good for us to reflect why so many in the world hate our government. Our government has a lot to account for. But, the finger pointing and name calling going on here is sickening. My God, if many of you were in the same room, there would be rivers of blood running from it, if your comments are any indication. You want to talk about history? It's very simple. War = death, disease, misery, hopelessness, despair and destruction. That is all anyone has to know.
"And we were there because people there asked for our help.
Some of those people were the people of france. It wasn't just the US doing its own thing that time. France had helped another people fighting for freedom that asked for help - the US. We saw vietnam as fighting the same battle we had 200 years earlier."
Yes. Vietnam kicked every invasor out of their country including the french that wanted to play colonisator (or conquistador). Lots of European countries went to Vietnam and they all got kicked out.
And no. You weren't fighting for freedom. The people wanted a change and they fought for it. And yet you talk about freedom when the french en the US armies killed 100000's viatnamese. I guess it never occured to you that the viatnamese people doesn't liked to be ruled from Paris or Washington?
"Vietnam was actually one of the most justified wars we have had. It just was doomed to failure because of politics."
Yes. Oh Chi Min and the Vietcong informed the people and motivated to defend themselves. Anyone that survived the hell of Viatnam can tell you that.
However, I think we're getting way off topic.
To get back: strength to the families that suffer because of the violence of Al Qaeda or the US army. People are people and 8000 died. September 11th shouldn't be a "only US dead matter" conmemoration day but a "madness and greed killed 8000 people" day.
Regards,
C.
C.
Ralf, it's people like you who give credence to the theory that all the intelligent Europeans immigrated long ago leaving only inbred, low-IQ, neo-nazis like yourself. This is of course only a theory....
>> When I see posts like "without americans, all of you would be speaking german" I have to go and vomit... And americans still wonder why people dislike them... Why don't you all go and read something, try to understand humankind and its history, and then get back... But now, maybe you are too stupid to understand simple things...
Yet you can judge all Americans and dislike them in general based on the posts of opinions that you disagree with. You are at the opposite end of the same spectrum these people are on. Talk about stupid.
Its pretty obvious you;re the fascist. Ralf has acquitted himself admirably - you leave much to be desired.
BTW , FH's comment " Fuck all you non americans " = = US Foreign Policy paraphrased.
>Now, when we are the target, France (who haven't had a
>military victory in over 100 years) and England, who are
>supposed to be our friends; puss out. What I'm seeing from
>Europe now is nothing but snobbery and a ripe bunch of
>poltroons.
What are you talking about???? Great Britain has backed the US ALL THE WAY over the last 12 months. RAF tankers re-fuelled American planes during the Afghanistan campaign.
The British freely agreed to a REQUEST by the Americans that the Royal Marines help search the mountains in Afghanistan, because the American Rangers were inadequately trained for mountain warfare.
The British SAS had been in Afghanistan for some time before the bombing began conducting recon missions and raids.
The British allowed US aircraft access to its Diego Garcia base in the Indian Ocean.
The Royal Navy had an assault craft, a nuclear submarine and a number of other ships in the area providing support for the Americans.
Tony Blair went out of his way to help build the alliance against al-Qaida this time last year, reaching countries that the UK has better relations with than the US does.
The UK is the only country that supports the removal of the oppressive regime in Iraq.
I don't know where you are getting your information from, but the UK hasn't been looking the other way along with other European countries. To suggest so is rather insulting and it makes me wonder what other rubbish is being spouted in the American press about the UK.
>> BTW , FH's comment " Fuck all you non americans " = = US Foreign Policy paraphrased.
And any other country in the same position that the U.S. is in would be so much more altruistic... Give us a break!
"Meet the new boss...Same as the old boss." - The Who
make me wonder if Washington had it right with his "avoid foreign entaglements" bit in his farewell address.
Actually, President Bush does have WAR POWERS on a limited basis, I believe it is for forty days. This was established a long time ago, secondly, he has WAR POWERS if the Iraqi Regime is considered to be a terrorist state(which is is). However, have you been watching t.v. or reading news articles lately, Bush, while he CAN legally attack Iraq w/out congress apporval, he has stated he won't...He will seek congress' approval first.
if you just stop messing about in other people's countries, maybe the 'terrorists' will go home?
Boy people love having it both ways (including those in the US government). Either you want us "messing" with other people's countries our you don't. Don't ask the US for billions of dollars in financial aid, or for military equipment or to build factories in other countries and then tell us to mind our own business.
Imagine a world where the US "stopped messing" with other people's countries, whatever that means. Would that stop US resentment or create more of it. At that point we would here all the people poo-poo'ing about stuck up Americans keeping everything for themselves. We would hear about how American's can't share or want it all for themselves. While you are complaining about the US government wanting to insure its billions of dollars of investment abroad, ask yourself what the situation in those countries would be like if it wasn't for US investment.
People want to get the third world out of the third world status, and that takes tons of money and economic investment. It also takes stable governments. The US should support more democratic governments, but the US support of dictators is once again neither unique or irregular. In many cases we support one dictator over another dictator. Unfortunately most of the world isn't truly ready to embrace a representative government. Let's not imagine all the cases of support dictatorial regimes as being the big bad US supporting the big bad general against the poor freedom fighters. Those "freedom fighters" are many times fighting at the behest of yet another dictator, just one that we don't like!
Every government has turned blind eyes to problems they don't want to deal with and governments that support their world view despite what they are doing to their citizens. Why do people cry about US lack of action in many African nations and then demonize us for our actions in Iraq or Yugoslavia? At least the US government has an answer to their contradictory position--there is no US interest in those areas. That might not be the most PC answer, or a very nice answer but it makes sense. For the most part governments and people mind their own business until someone starts messing with their business. Why does anyone expect more of the US?
Every body can stay here posting lots of comments, but as I can see the fact is:
Recently (one year) too much people die. Was that necesary? Really Not. Whas that Just, may be but not against that people, just against the country.
Why against the country, Why USA.
Simply, USA dont't care how many wars have to fight, has the money, has de power, has resources. And everybody everywhere may be shure right there will be. USA is not a saint. Every war they where has economic background. Sometimes has used by politics, but the trut is... USA will do anything it consider necesary by its self benefit. There are a lot of phantomimic programs to cover the real world.
It in it's right. Every body with power will use it for it's own benefit and it USA does.
As in somewhere i had read "The history is written by the winners" you USA habitans only know your side of the history, you were lunatic with comunist and like with "war to terrorism" it's a shield to justify al your country do, it was an excuse to fight and irrespect other countries.
I'm from Guatemala, we have no choice than support USA, few years ago (1945) here was a civilian revolution with a lot of benefits for our country. There was Nixon as USA president, and everything that doesn't like to USA was pointed as comunism. UFCO has de control of a lot of our territory (United Fruit Company) and then economic control and Power. These changes afect theire interest and some UFCO investors was in the congress. To resumen as an example they order to CIA take over and release that change. Our President was obligated to leave the country, he tried by diplomatic ways (Without bloody war) to prevent this invasion, but as always is Whitout consentimen of USA nobody support Guatemala, and we go backward. CIA put as president an uncualified governor. Make a show about the Holy intervention of USA against comunism, and dictate to our new president what they want to ear. UFCO continue as it wants, and the history continue.... but the important is this...
USA acts at it's own. If something is good for they, then they help, else no way.
I'm sorry for your pain, but please, remember the pain of all people in the world and the hurt you country cause...
......
Don't use my grammar to criticize me, if you comment about, comment about the contents.
Hmm, wasn't your country one of the first to go? Not to mention being one of the most complicit nations mit Das Dritte Reich?
Belgische Shutz Staffeln troops were some of the most brutal concentration camp guards in all of "Greater Germany". In fact, that was not just the german speaking belgians. One fighting unit - comprised of French-Speaking Belgians- were SO GOOD - the germans often used them for propaganda footage. And again, since they were so good, the unit was moved from the control of the Wehrmacht to that of the Waffen SS during the war.
That being said, I'm fairly sure a good portion of your elder countrymen would've been happy to speak the language of the Fatherland.
Just because I'm an American, it doesn't mean I dont know about my history AND yours as well.
Eugenia, what did you do with this kind of thread? See, now everybody is talking about something different from the subject... :-) Maybe in the future you should consider people's feelings and frustations before... This is REALLY a senzitive matter, america vs rest of the world... And for sure, this, osnews, is not the place for it...
In the end, since I'm not going to write more in this thread, I'm very sorry for the people who died a year ago. I want a world withoud this... Peace and knowledge to all...
USA acts at it's own. If something is good for they, then they help, else no way.
As I pointed out elsewhere this is the modus operendi of every government throughout history. The US has stuck its nose into situations where it had no self interest, Bosnia and Somalia are the first ones that come to mind. However for the most part we have to protect our interests, as do the governments of every other country around the world. The US may have the biggest military and one of the biggest economic engines in the world, but it isn't infinite. We can't just go everyone and solve every problems. (If we did, wouldn't we further be getting into everyone else's business and be creating more resentment?) Since our resources aren't unlimited, we have to pick which conflicts to enter and which side to move on. Once again, this is the same as every government throughout the world throughout history.
Has the US always made the right choice, far from it. At the same time, don't demonize the US government for acting in the exact same way as every government throughout history.
>>In the end, since I'm not going to write more in this thread, I'm very sorry for the people who died a year ago. I want a world withoud this... Peace and knowledge to all.<<
Ah ha. you must be more French than belgian. You have the typical French attitude - surrender as soon as the going gets tough.
...while he CAN legally attack Iraq w/out congress apporval, he has stated he won't...He will seek congress' approval first.
Actually, congress already gave him their approval last year.
Well, I can see that we (Americans) are not wanted in the world community, we try to help, we try to be the leader that the ONLY world superpower has the ability to be, but we just aren't wanted. Maybe it's jealousy, maybee it's just pure hatred, none the less, I propose we isolate ourselves from the world community. Of, course, Israel, we will gladly still invlove you with everything we do, but that's about it, well, maybee England too.
Let's see how the world fairs when we pull out our Trillion+ GDP, when we pull out our military from S. Korea and N. Korea invades, lets see how the Middle East and Western Europe fair when China come rolling across the border, let's see how Europe reacts when Russia becomes the big red bear again, becasue without us there is no deterrence, you won't have the deterrence of 30,000+ nukes that has kept those giants at bay for a long time...
Oh, don't worry about us, though, sure we consume 40% of the worlds oil suppy, but we have always been able to make what we need(i.e. automobiles, telephones, electricity, t.v's, elec. computer, nuke energy and bombs, airplanes, this sure is a long redundant list), we will find alternative energies, as far a food goes, well, we are the worlds bread basket, more food for me!
Maybe if we shut down the borders to all immagrants and forieners we would slow down development growth (birth rate in US is slightly higher than 0, most of our pop growth comes from immagrants) and save some of this beautiful land for ourselves...We'll let Europe form the E.U. into the worst parts of the bible (one world givernment = Revelations), anyway we will check back in with ya'll in about 10 years to see how bad your various plagues and poverty and socialist/communist governments have become...
Just don't ask us for money or help...we learned our lesson, we've been bent over and screwed without even the courtesy of Vaseline too many time to save the world again...
Don't take this too serious, just some random thougts.
> Hmm, wasn't your country one of the first to go? Not to > mention being one of the most complicit nations mit Das ?> Dritte Reich?
Actually, I'm from Romania. I moved in Belgium a year ago. Romania was an ally of Germany until 23 august 1944 (it's complicated why and how). Then came Russia. 45 years of darkness and terror (believe me, I know)... Of course, back then, the western world (including America, of course) had no problem letting Stalin to take everything he wanted...
But I don't get your point. Europe is a region with a lot of countries, with a lot of history which is hard to get by... In a few decades, I hope the problems will be solved, but who knows...
Back when the USSR broke up, people talked about the "end of history". How naive we were. The Cold War, for all its ills kept the lawless countries safely controlled. After the Cold war-- we have Afghanistan, Bosnia, Somalia-- all running out of control. I was a pacifist. I didn't agree with Viet Nam in the sixties. I felt we should ignore the pesky little 3rd world rat holes. Unfortunately, I guess we can't do that. The US and NATO are all that stands between civilization and a retreat to Taliban medieval-like hatred.
What are you talking about???? Great Britain has backed the US ALL THE WAY over the last 12 months. RAF tankers re-fuelled American planes during the Afghanistan campaign.
I am aware of Tony Blair's support, and I respect him very much. I should have been more specific regarding who I was talking about instead of blanketing all of Europe. My mistake.
What I'm referring to is the unsupportive posts from the UK on this site today and the people in the UK that are upset with Tony Blair's decision to help with Iraq. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear.
I think Tony Blair is a great leader; it's the unsupportive followers that I'm quite disappointed in. However, my opinion matters not at all. The world will go on its merry way and I will eventually die. Therefore, please don't get too upset at anything I say.
> Ah ha. you must be more French than belgian.
I don't get you. What's your problem? Ok, if you want to talk seriously, no problem... About what? 11th september? america vs europe? WW II? Is this the right place? Without Europe, America would still hunt for animals to have something to eat, believing that if someone takes a picture of you would steal your soul.... and so on... Don't be so smart....
Fuck you and your country!
Its odd how easily you say that of anyone else but how much offence you take when its flung back at you.
Its that national attitude that suggests that the US can never be wrong that causes crap like this.
Its that national attitude that suggests that the US can never be wrong that causes crap like this.
Funny, I think I've been pretty clear that the US not only can be, but has been wrong in the past. I'm suggesting the opposite position back to people like you however. Why do you hold the US to a standard higher than all other governments throughout history. It would be nice if we lived up to a higher standard, and in many cases I think we do, but how come only the US is to be condemned for protecting its own self interests? Are you saying your own country doesn't do the same thing?!
No need to get upset ~seedy~, for the most part we Americans love Enlgand, after all, we can always joke that a bunch of minute men kicked the hell out of the world superpower at the time, the hated Red Coats...Only joking, that was nothing more...
Seriously, the UK and US don't need to fight, after all, we share the world most popular language, and a lot of culture, although the culture is getting more and more different, anyway, in my proposed Declaration of Isolation, I said that you gues could join us and let the rest of the world rott without us, see we can be friends...
> but how come only the US is to be condemned for
> protecting its own self interests? Are you saying
> your own country doesn't do the same thing?!
Maybe this is the difference. Europe doesn't try first brute force, like america, replacing one dictator with another and so on, but in the hope of peace, education is put in the first place... Of course every country protects its interest, but not without thinking of the whole picture before...
Like Asimov said, "violence is the last refuge for incompetence"...
"but how come only the US is to be condemned for protecting its own self interests?"
Well maybe becuase nowadays there are no other government that sticks his nose everywhere living thousands or dead people behind "because it's protecting its own self interest"?
C.
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas 10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the American who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those. "
Just some food for thought.
...Europe doesn't try first brute force, like america, replacing one dictator with another and so on, but in the hope of peace, education is put in the first place...
I'd like to believe this was true for the most part. This isn't historically true however. Furthermore, the general US foreign policy is not entirely consumed with war. That is a further distortion. If we simply brute forced everything, would we not be "brute forcing" Europe militarily due to the recent farm and steel tariff issues? Would we not also be brute forcing Egypt, Jordan and other countries of the world militarily to support our position in Iraq?
Well maybe because nowadays there are no other government that sticks his nose everywhere living thousands or dead people behind "because it's protecting its own self interest"?
But is this because of a moral high ground or because of a lack of ability. I'm not condoning the US government supporting oppressive rulers, which is essentially what we are talking about. At the same time we can see the exact same thing occuring on microscopic scales around the world. Look at the unstable regions of the world that we are discussing. What proactive action has been taken by the African governments to stop the genocides over the last decade, or the financial collapse generated by Mugabe's dictatorial mandates?
World peace is a nice thought. We could do it if everyone "kept to themselves". I'm not talking isolationism here, but simply respecting the rights of their neigbors. It was said earlier that the greatest threat to world peace is nationalism, and I'd tend to agree with that. It is this intense nationalism which causes people not to "keep to themselves". Thus we have wars and destruction. If the US "kept to themselves", that wouldn't shut down the war machines throughout the world, unfortunately.
Thank you very much Gordon...understand that the Canadiens are our good friends, sure we both make jokes about one another, but when it comes down to it, we are very strong allies...
I read through all the posts. What enrages me is that many people say: the goverment of country X murdered N people on year Y, so I guess it is alright that the goverment of country Y killed N' people on year Y'.
Come on people! All killing is bad, every war is bad. And nobody has to support the killings of his current or former goverment or their ancestors. This includes <add your country here> too.
It is sad that many Americans haven't understand that the "Anti-Terror War" is a war of their goverment. Not theirs. There are more peaceful means of eliminating terrorism. American goverment chose war. But that doesn't mean that the American citizen shall buy that.
And to say my religious thing: Jesus teached "turn the other cheek" not "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth".
Actually, the concept of zero was developed in India. Arabs originally got credit because they were the first to bring the concept to the western world (due to trade routes). Check your facts.
> That is a further distortion. If we simply brute
> forced everything, would we not be
> "brute forcing" Europe militarily
Wait a second. Are you denying that America nowadays is acting like it's the world's policeman? Not only policeman, but the judge also???... And this I don't want, where my problem with America is... Unfortunately, you act like this only when your interests serve you... Nothing to gain for America? No problem... Cecenia? Communism? Terrorism? What's that? A, if terrorists attack us, then ok, we have to take over the world, because we are the best... You are very proud of landing on the moon, for example, but you forget, of course, that Von Braun built the rockets... By the way, Von Braun was the chief architect for the Reich and V2 missiles...
But this is stupid and it isn't going anywhere anyway... Too bad we're even talking about this...
and can we go back to our Mac vs. PC pissing contests? 
"Well maybe becuase nowadays there are no other government that sticks his nose everywhere living thousands or dead people behind "because it's protecting its own self interest"?
ever heard of Russia or China? Packistan or India (who were at the brink of nuclear war? Ethiopia? Somalia (warlords), Serbia? Sudan? Iran (who supports just about every terrorist group including Al qaida), Turkey (not so nice to those kurds)? Iraq? Syria (lots of support for anti-israeli groups)? The PLO (clinton gave them a pretty good deal)?
There are still plenty of nasty's in the world. I really think that many of you just dislike the fact that the US has more reach than anyone else. everyone in this group is unwilling to accept or look at any wrong doing by anyone but america. Is everyone else a saint or is it just okay to be a devil with a short arm? So many of you seem willing to forget about wrongs so long as they are committed locally.
US citizens may need to learn why the US is disliked but the rest of the world may need to learn what a world that is dominated by the chinese, Europeans, Russians, Packistanis, and indians is like. I can guarantee it will be far worse. Far worse. The US is not the cause of all wrong. Really.
The king of spain often says "i am not so stupid and my wife is not so smart." Likewise, America is not so evil and the rest of the world is not so good.
All you Americans that think that the world would be doomed without your money and we should be grateful to you for having $, you remind me some rich boy I knew once a child that owned a ball and wouldn't let other kids play unless they kissed his ass.
You are pathetic. Is money the best of your qualities?
the generalization of people here. "All you Americans..." boy, that really helps with this discussion.
Then again, I'm a third generation American, with a heritage from northern Europe, China, and the Middle East. What do I know? I'll just leave my computer and go back to oppressing myself.
the fucking americans dig their pridefull nose in every countries business. now come and try hitting iraq, all muslims will get together and beat the fucking ass of george w. bush to hell.
look:
we muslims belive in god, our holy religionship is in saudi arabia. maybe some of you people heard of hadch or kaabe (kaaba) the 3 directions of islam is (iirc i may be wrong now) syria, saudi arabia and iraq. if america starts hitting iraq without a fucking reason then we gonna beat them up. attacking iraq without any fuckign reaons is like attacking the islam itself.
Ryan wrote:
The US is not the cause of all wrong. Really.
Same goes for Americans too. Sadam isn't the source of all evil. Bin Laden either. Not to mention the former USSR. OK they _are_ bad but I think the US causes the world more harm in the try to get rid of them, than the harm they cause themselves to the world. US looks sometimes like an amateur surgeon. And nobody wants to get operated by a such.
Wait a second. Are you denying that America nowadays is acting like it's the world's policeman? Not only policeman, but the judge also???...
Funny you mention that, because this is the exact debate we have inside the US. "Why should we go around the world saving economies and countries that have no bearing on our well being," is a mantra raised by the right wing in our country. Everytime we have, once again Somalia and Bosnia come to mind, we get nothing but international heartburn for it. More on this below...
And this I don't want, where my problem with America is... Unfortunately, you act like this only when your interests serve you... Nothing to gain for America? No problem... Cecenia? Communism? Terrorism? What's that?
I would like to see the US, the UN and the entire international community take more responsibility for letting oppressive and dictatorial governments off the hook. If the west had stayed out of these areas initially we wouldn't have to worry about interacting now. Unfortunately the west did create the situation throughout the world via hundreds of years of mismanaged policy and we, the current people of the world, now have to deal with it. I'll work on my government to clean up its act, you guys do the same. Without sarcasm, lets see if we can get rid of all regimes which oppress their people. It is possible to get rid of war, it will just take a few generations.
A, if terrorists attack us, then ok, we have to take over the world, because we are the best...
Every country that has been beset by terrorism has gone after them with a vengeance, not just the US. Britain, Spain, Germany, Japan and other countries where freedom unfortunately allows these types of people to breed and grow covertly deal with the issue in the same way. In the case of the al Qaeda, this was an international powder keg waiting to burst and every nation that feels threatened (including vocal opponents to US action in Iraq action like Germany) are being just as vigiliant as we are.
You are very proud of landing on the moon, for example, but you forget, of course, that Von Braun built the rockets...By the way, Von Braun was the chief architect for the Reich and V2 missiles...
Many people in Germany did horrible acts under Nazi Germany. Should we have simply exterminated the whole lot of them? I think not. Von Braun and many other former Nazi's made enormous contributions to the world after they were removed from that setting. I don't excuse Von Braun's actions during WWII, but that doesn't diminish the good he and others did. Are you equally appalled at the Fokker corporation for their production of airplanes, or Volkswagon for their production of tanks? Do you have any idea how many German, Italian and Japanese engineers during the war period went on to add positive contributions to the world?
But this is stupid and it isn't going anywhere anyway... Too bad we're even talking about this...
I disagree with you on this point the most. This is constructive dialog. This is an exchange of ideas. This type of constructive exchange is what is necessary so that people of different views can live together without war. Certainly it is easier to envision a warless society if we turn it into one homogonous unit. That isn't possible however. Instead we must learn to live with each other's differences of opinions. Dialog, talking, debating and other constructive mechanisms, when used intellectually will be what makes that possible.
Please, United States Citizens....
American are from the American Continent.
North American Include Mexico, United States and Canada
Don't call yourself "Americans", it's not proper, when you using american it's hard determine what are you refering to.
Everywhere from II world war customed to use american refering to United States Troop, but it's really bad.
When you say "Americans" you are covering more than you are thinking.
Please all other over de world think about this...
(Gengtilicio en español: Estadounidense)
Oh, by no means, but realize that the basis for all economic principles is the fundamental statement of, "There's no such thing as a free lunch." See by having Trillions more than anyone else, we can do things that no one else can...other qualities the US possess as a nation, inlcude inventing/innovating/creativity. You don't have to look hard to find evidence of this: electricity, cars, telephones, electronic computer, nuclear energy (and bombs), t.v.'s, airplanes, ball point pens...the list goes on and on...
We are very giving, do you realize that we give more aid than all other countries???Seriously, we rebuilt Europe after WWII.
We invented baseball! We pay some of our player the equivelent to the GDP of some small countries (250 Mil. for A-Rod).
Oh, yeah, we have one of the longest standing governments is the world, our constitution has been in effect since 1789, no wars over change of power here...You know what come to think of it mourga, the world would be a better place without us, I mean, modern society is so out of touch with the neanderthals that preceeded us, it's a disgrace, all of this technology in medicine and science is spoiling everyone, get a clue!
when I said a "constructive dialag" I was not including the simplistic, ad homenin attacks by the likes that occur between my two posts. Sorry for the confusion...
I wrote : "All you Americans _that_think_that_ blah blah"
This may not be clear enough but the statement refers to Americans that believe in what follows. Not to ALL Americans UNCONDITIONALLY.
When I see posts like "without americans, all of you would be speaking german" I have to go and vomit...
If people get sick when you hear a fact, that is their problem. I wonder how these people react when they get up in the morning and hear the temperature on the morning news; it must send them into the bathroom crying.
And americans still wonder why people dislike them...
So far you have not given a reason. Just because we saved Europe when Germany decided to start a World War - twice, I might add - while most of the countries in Europe just sat by and tried to "negotiate" with the powermad dictators, does not mean that we like being hated by the Europeans. If you are capable of exercising logic, I suggest that you do so.
So many of you are venting your opinions about what happened in the past, your dislike for certain governments, etc. Day's like today should be devoted to how war, killing and destruction can be avoided, how peaceful resolutions to conflicts can be achieved, how war achieves nothing but death, disease, misery and destruction. In fact, every day should be devoted to that.
An honest assessment of history shows that sometimes there are no peaceful solutions to the problems we face. When you appease terrorists and power-mad dictators, they do not produce peaceful, happy citizens nor do they practice peace themselves. When the Euroweenies stop ignoring the problems that are faced by people everywhere - both free and oppressed - we will finally achieve peace. Until then, we must act alone.
And no. You weren't fighting for freedom. The people wanted a change and they fought for it. And yet you talk about freedom when the french en the US armies killed 100000's viatnamese. I guess it never occured to you that the viatnamese people doesn't liked to be ruled from Paris or Washington?
We went because we were asked by the South Vietnamese government, which was being *invaded* by the North Vietnamese. If you think that the North Vietnamese gave their people freedom, you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about.
Yes. Oh Chi Min and the Vietcong informed the people and motivated to defend themselves.
I wonder how crossing over their country's border and attacking both the South Vietnamese soldiers and Americans qualifies as "defending" themselves.
To get back: strength to the families that suffer because of the violence of Al Qaeda or the US army. People are people and 8000 died. September 11th shouldn't be a "only US dead matter" conmemoration day but a "madness and greed killed 8000 people" day.
LOL
Its pretty obvious you;re the fascist. Ralf has acquitted himself admirably - you leave much to be desired.
Oh joy. Time for pin the tail on the fascist again.
Arturo,
Guess what, our nationality is called AMERICAN...check this out, and try to keep up...if you are from Mexico, your NATIONALITY IS MEXICAN...if you are from Canada, your NATIONALITY IS CANADIEN(sp?). North American would describe all three, but is regional, not national, similarly, if you are from Brazil, you are Brazilian, your regional name is South American. If you are from cuba, you are Cuban, or you could be called Latin American/Central American, depending on how you view the region....A citizen of the United states of AMERICA is AMERICAN...see how that works??? Check out the CIA Worldbook if you don't accept my argument...
What are you talking about???? Great Britain has backed the US ALL THE WAY over the last 12 months.
Finally, some good news!
I don't know where you are getting your information from, but the UK hasn't been looking the other way along with other European countries. To suggest so is rather insulting and it makes me wonder what other rubbish is being spouted in the American press about the UK.
It is unfortunate that some people just generally assume that since many Europeans are incomprehensibly stupid all Europeans are that way. It is similar to the way people think that all Americans are stupid, except that the view of Europeans is based more on frustration and bewilderment than blind hatred and jealousy.
Boy people love having it both ways (including those in the US government). Either you want us "messing" with other people's countries our you don't. Don't ask the US for billions of dollars in financial aid, or for military equipment or to build factories in other countries and then tell us to mind our own business.
Ah, but then they put on their victim hats. The US is supposedly taking up all the world's natural resources and making all the world's pollution, so we should give all our ill-gotten money away to the poor poverty-stricken people who really deserve it. Of course, as soon as we try to make sure that the money actually gets to the people (rather than the dictators and their wealthy friends), the US-haters put on their diplomat hats and ask us to stop meddling.
Trying to reason with these people is like trying to pull a grizzly bears teeth without pain-killers or sedatives. You are quite likely to get your head crushed, if the bear is in a good mood. ;-)
People want to get the third world out of the third world status, and that takes tons of money and economic investment. It also takes stable governments.
The reason that the third world is still the third world is because of oppressive governments. We can give all the money we want to places like Nigeria, but we would be incredibly luckily if the people even see one cent of it.
In the early stages of the war against Afghanistan, people criticized the US for not sending supplies to the poverty-stricken population. We then sent supplies, which were confiscated by the government never to be seen by the people as long as the Taliban controlled the government. These groups retain power not in spite of the poverty but precisely because of it; poverty can be blaimed on the US, and the news service can just "fail" to report when the US sends aid. It is a cozy little setup - for the dictator.
Joseph Stalin was once asked why, when his people were being starved to death and wiped out with genocide, they people remained loyal to him. Stalin said nothing at first, but then he took a chicken and slowly plucked all its feathers off while the bird screamed in agony. He then set the bird down and walked away. Freezing and unable to keep its own warmth, the bird huddled between Stalin's legs for warmth even though it had suffered such pain at his hands only moments before.
Maybe in the future you should consider people's feelings and frustations before... This is REALLY a senzitive matter, america vs rest of the world... And for sure, this, osnews, is not the place for it...
Oh, quit whining just because you lost. ;-)
Seriously, it was very nice of you to write the sentiment about September 11th.
At the same time, don't demonize the US government for acting in the exact same way as every government throughout history.
Huh? At the end of World War II, we could very well have taken over the world. Western Europe disbanded its armies. US had a nuclear monopoly for a good four years. No other country could have withstood the American economy paired with the production of nuclear weapons. But we did not attack. We have only attacked to protect our interests when they have been threatened by people who would like to see the US cease to exist. The US foreign policy has been almost entirely isolationist since the beginning until recently. I could go on and on, but we are not "just like every other country."
Maybe this is the difference. Europe doesn't try first brute force, like america, replacing one dictator with another and so on, but in the hope of peace, education is put in the first place... Of course every country protects its interest, but not without thinking of the whole picture before...
Are you referring to the war against Iraq? Hussein has failed to comply with his UN resolutions for quite a few years. Each time we suggest war to remove that liar from power, you idiots suggest another round of diplomacy. He complies...for about a week. Then he kicks the UN inspectors out. Up until now we haven't had a President who thought of war as something other than a distraction from Monica. We've had a lot of reports that Hussein has biological/chemical weapons and is close to acquiring nuclear weapons, but what do the Euroweenies want us to do? Negotiate, again, for another round of agreements that are completely meaningless because we will not be able to enforce them. Sheer idiocy...
Well, we're back to September 11 again, one year after the free world changed forever. The media is bombarding us with the horrible images of that day, relentlessly making us re-live the horror we felt last year. I don't know how we can expect families of victims to be able to cope.
There is a channel button on your remote, is there not?
Please, please, please think before you write. Your statements do nothing but a disservice to the image of the U.S. to people on this board. Certainly some comments through this discussion have come in at the same level as the ones you've recently posted, but that's not an excuse to stoop to those levels. Instead point out the issues logically and intellectually, not by saying silly things like "We're so great because we invented baseball and have the biggest army, and if you don't like it screw you..."
Dustin I know the US and their money have offered much advances to the mankind. But in my country we say "do a good thing and then forget about it". That is, be altruistic. Don't expect to buy respect with $.
After all the world doesn't need only advances and money. I'd prefer to live in a peaceful world with stone-age technology.
After all the world doesn't need only advances and money. I'd prefer to live in a peaceful world with stone-age technology.
Unfortunately this was never the choice. We didn't live in a peaceful world before the advent of technology or civilization at the begining of the agricultural revolution. If we were speaking of the ficticious world you speak, I would choose stone-age and peace too. That unfortunately isn't, and never has been, a reality.
On another note, this editorial on ArabNews.com speaks very pointedly towards much of the sentiment I have been trying to convey on this board in terms of attrocities and international action:
http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=18538
Praise all those people died of the WTC and Pentagon Attack on September 11,2001.................
Please, please, please think before you write. Your statements do nothing but a disservice to the image of the U.S. to people on this board. Certainly some comments through this discussion have come in at the same level as the ones you've recently posted, but that's not an excuse to stoop to those levels. Instead point out the issues logically and intellectually, not by saying silly things like "We're so great because we invented baseball and have the biggest army, and if you don't like it screw you..."
DIY. I made no such claims.
@siiiawww
i give a fucking shit on those who died on 11th sept in usa. get a freaking look here:
http://www.hizbollah.org/arabic/picarchive/picarchive.html
look at the killed children you americans and the fucking jews are responsible for that massacres.
>>You are very proud of landing on the moon, for example, but you forget, of course, that Von Braun built the rockets... By the way, Von Braun was the chief architect for the Reich and V2 missiles...<<
And he von Braun got the idea for rockets from Goddard (an AMERICAN!)
>>Are you denying that America nowadays is acting like it's the world's policeman? Not only policeman, but the judge also???<<
Haven't we been asked to, time and again, over the last 50 years? Now when we take the role, without being asked, the world gets upset? Screw you.
Fuck off. You have a problem with how we do things pick up a gun and stand post...I don't think you will for long when a delta formation of F-16 Eagles levels off the horizon and you hear the boom from the supersonic speeds...Oh, sure you sure are quick to yell at the American, but when when good ol' Saddam chemical bombs thousands of his own people, you don't even want him out of power.Jackass.
Its odd how easily you say that of anyone else but how much offence you take when its flung back at you.
Its that national attitude that suggests that the US can never be wrong that causes crap like this.
Didn't I say that our country can be wrong; and that I think it is corrupt? My only point is that there are a large number of Europeans that don't want to support us in fighting against the group of individuals who bombed us. Guaranteed if you were bombed in a similar fashion, we would be there to help.
I also apologized for making a blanket statement and not being specific regarding who I was talking about.
What more do you want?
Guaranteed if you were bombed in a similar fashion, we would be there to help.
I dunno...maybe there is something to this pacifism thing after all? j/k ;-)
Dustin wrote:
Oh, sure you sure are quick to yell at the American, but when when good ol' Saddam chemical bombs thousands of his own people, you don't even want him out of power.
Come on Dustin! How can you be so naive? It is possible that Saddam is killing or torturing his opponents but it is hard to believe that he bombs his own people with chemicals. This sounds as ridiculus as some conspiracy theories saying that CIA was behind the 11th Sept. attack. If Saddam was really that paranoid, his own people would have overthrown him. But the largest part of Iraq people seems to support him (for reasons that we don't know or maybe even don't understand) and that is why the US have trouble overthrowing him.
Remember the Gulf??? That was one reason we went into Iraq...btw Saddam's "people" don't support him...they can't overthrow his government, it's called a dictatorship, and he controls the guns...
It is possible that Saddam is killing or torturing his opponents but it is hard to believe that he bombs his own people with chemicals. This sounds as ridiculus as some conspiracy theories saying that CIA was behind the 11th Sept. attack. If Saddam was really that paranoid, his own people would have overthrown him
In a military dictatorship scenario, sometimes the people don't have a choice. He did gas his own people throughout the 80's. This was how he stopped the uprising from within. If he didn't, who else gassed the Kurds? Just because an administration exacts terror on their people doesn't mean the people can overthrow them. Stalin was never overthrown, neither are many of the currently seated dictators who torture and murder their own people. It's naive to think that people under such an oppressive regime, who have never known democratic rule, would be able to overthrow their dictators.
The good thing about dictators is that their governments usually only last as long as they are alive. Saddam will die eventually, there will be a big power vacuum, and life will go on.
the fucking americans dig their pridefull nose in every countries business. now come and try hitting iraq, all muslims will get together and beat the fucking ass of george w. bush to hell.
Why do you care anyway? Bush is after Saddam, who isn't a muslim. Why not just turn him over to us and save everyone a bunch of trouble?
look: we muslims belive in god,
Riiight, I have a "Noble Qur'an" with the painted gold doily on it right here. I also work with a fellow from Egypt who has shown me all the gory Arabic parts left out of the pacifist, marketing version sent out to English speakers. I also know the beliefs that all infidels should be killed until the world is all muslim, and the teaching that the US is evil and must die, and so on. Save me your sob story.
our holy religionship is in saudi arabia. maybe some of you people heard of hadch or kaabe (kaaba) the 3 directions of islam is (iirc i may be wrong now) syria, saudi arabia and iraq.
Does it also include Israel? Is that why muslims are always trying to kill the Jews or is it because they believe the birthright should not have gone to Issac and are offended because it did?
This is what makes me laugh about the self proclaimed intelligentia, lets-negotiate-with-insane-dictators crowd. The dictators say, we want Israel back and all the Jews and the US dead. How the hell is anyone supposed to negotiate with that? Um, okay. Well, um, what if we promise to phase them out of existence over the course of the ten years.
if america starts hitting iraq without a fucking reason then we gonna beat them up. attacking iraq without any fuckign reaons is like attacking the islam itself.
Wouldn't that make our targets much clearer?
Also, if we show we have a reason, are you going to be fine with that?
"A minutes silence for the victims of September 11th 1973
...the date on which a CIA-sponsored coup in Chile overthrew the democratically elected government of Allende, leading to an estimated 30,000 political killings.
Now THAT'S terrorism."
http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?50@@.3ba7412b/13
"Spin-on-this readers are invited to enter our ‘spot the difference’ competition. We describe two unelected world leaders who must be stopped at all costs. All you have to do is ‘spot the difference’. Here’s dictator one, known as ‘Saddam’: "he’s lined his own pockets while his people struggle to get by. He’s signed death warrants to have fellow countrymen executed. He wants to control the oil supply in Iraq." Here’s dictator two, known simply as ‘Dubya’: "he’s lined his own pockets while his people struggle to get by. He’s signed death warrants to have fellow countrymen executed. He wants to control the oil supply in Iraq." One clue, if you CAN spot the difference, you’re probably Tony Blair."
http://www.spin-on-this.com/
mougra, Saddam used posion gas on the Kurds. Everything else aside, he is a lunatic.
When I argue for peace, I do not mean sitting by and doing nothing or making weak kneed treaties or that type of thing. Going to war, resorting to terrorism are the easy way that requires no imagination. The challenge of peace is a challenge because it is the difficult, hard way. Many of you are very intelligent, I know this from your comments about computing and operating systems. Use your intelligence! Do not take the easy way, the way a Neanderthal man could just as well take. Achieving peace is a hard, difficult road and requires constant and absolute dedication. Why are you wasting your breath insulting each other and each other's nationalities? Some of you are very young. You sound as if war or terrorism is like your computer war games. It is not like that. There are no "cool wars" - what an incredible statement! War and terrorism means people, human beings, being blown to bits, families destroyed, economies ruined, disease, ignornace, hunger, poverty, hopelessness. The kind of hopelessness that would lead teenagers to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up.
The world is so small now, there is no more room for war. What good do you think will come from your insults and ill will? Nothing, absolutely nothing. If you want a challenge, you computer geniuses, take up the challenge of peace.
I don't really feel like adding to this US vs the world argument.
But i have to say watching the It all on TV was the must sureal thing i have ever seen. Expecially the documentry i saw last night which had cameras following the fire fighters as the towers collapsed. The amount of dust and paper everywhere was mind blowing.
The loud crash of people jumping was also hard to comprehend. It may sound sadistic but i found it quite interesting to see this film, and respect the fact i will quite likely (hopefully) not see anything at all simerlar during my life time.
My final comment is that violence solves nothing, it only adds to the pain suffering and hatered in the world. Be it violence against so called innocents or suspected criminals it doesn't solve anything, there are better ways to make people responsable for their actions.
"Spin-on-this readers are invited to enter our ‘spot the difference’ competition. We describe two unelected world leaders who must be stopped at all costs...
A funny post, but with one major flaw. George W. Bush WAS elected. Sure, all those rubes who look at an election in the same light they do a basketball game don't like it, so they lie to themselves so as not to think their team is a complete loser (I have to admit, Gore did a fine impersonation of a benign lump, but there just wasn't much else to cheer for).
RE:America.... by Arturo
By Dustin (IP: ---.nextel.com) - Posted on 2002-09-11 22:26:21
...your regional name is South American. If you are from cuba, you are Cuban, or you could be called Latin American/Central American, depending on how you view the region....A citizen of the United states of AMERICA is AMERICAN...see how that works??? Check out the CIA Worldbook if you don't accept my argument...
¿How you call to people of the American continent?
Your conuntry name means "United States" of <Continent> "America".
The CIA can define right there it too, but it's still a mistake, an institutionalized mistake. But Continent America and American is the right way. You confirm what I wrotte:
"Central America" -> "Central American"
"South America" -> "South American"
Whole Continent:
"America"->"American"
You don't have a proper region name, but along the time this error become law around the world, to the point that you thinkg it's right. One thing is that your country name can't be properly pronunctiated as a regional name and then you use one more generic.
Peace, END
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth."
This is typical american-type propaganda. Please mention that the above was the opinion of one man, and if I remember correctly, it was written MORE THAN TWENTY YEARS AGO. Canadians greatly sympatise with the Victims of Sept 11, but most do not agree with the way Bush is handling thing. You can read about the general canadian view on:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?
pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1026144989210
&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492
&call_pagepath=News/News&col=968793972154
And the view of the canadian prime minister on:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?
pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&
cid=1026144988841&call_page=TS_Canada&call_pageid=968332188774
&call_pagepath=News/Canada&col=968350116467
I think his point is that United States of America doesn't translate (in English) into an adjective.
E.g.
United Statesian?
Unitedish?
Statesian?
United States of American?
However, America does lend itself to become an adjective and that's why it's been used and the rest of the name has been truncated. Everyone pretty much realizes it's a misnomer, but what can you do? It's a quirk of the language. As a side note, all official positions use the full name but it's impractical to use the fullname in common lexicon.
As a couple of side notes:
Somewhat similiarly Gautemalans are known as such and not 'of the Republic of Guatemala'. Now if your country was unfortunately named after some (shared) geographic feature you'd be in a similiar predicament.
and:
"United States" isn't particularly descriptive either since there more than country who use such a prefix. Just as it would be erroneous to refer to someone from the Commonwealth of [country] as from the Commonwealth since more than one exists.
Not that it makes it any less of a misnomer but what is to be done?
"United States" isn't particularly descriptive either since there more than country who use such a prefix. Just as it would be erroneous to refer to someone from the Commonwealth of [country] as from the Commonwealth since more than one exists.
Actually this is true for the US too. It is the "United States of America". However, Virginia and Pennsylvania (I'm not sure if there are others) are not states, but commonwealths. I guess to be completely accurate it needs to be:The United States and Commonwealths of the Lower Half and Western portions of the North American Continent, and islands in the Atlantic and Pacicific Oceans. Never thought of it that way before... :-)
We are very aware of Britains involvement and appreciate it greatly. Seems Britain has one of the few governments that agrees with the philosopy of "freedom before peace". Right now, I think Tony Blaire is highly regarded in the U.S.
Thousands of innocent people from all over the world (it was the WORLD Trade Center that was destroyed) died on this day. Today should be a memorial day of rememberance-not an opportunity to get in some political spin. It's too bad some people want to get their cheap shot in instead of having some respect for the dead.
To AriB (IP: ---.nyw.ny.webcache.rcn.net) - Posted on 2002-09-12 00:58:07
the problem is not the dead people. no doubt 11th september was not nice. but i am not the person hyping such a day and make it a memorial. we shouldn't forget all the other people that got killed by whatever reasons on other days here on this globe. these people never get a memorial day or something.
Looking at all the Anti-American sentiment, all the feelings out there that we "got what was coming to us", I want to predict the future for you that hate America: We *will* go it alone. It will escalate out of control. While we are too busy to intercede, you will get carved up and divided between Russia and the Islamists. India and Pakistan will also take the opportunity to have a pissing contest, and China will intercede by conquering them both. We won't stop them, because of an unspoken agreement not to impede us when we're forced to use nukes on the Islamists. Sad, but with no one else backing us, how else can it play out? Soon after that the Russians will get their reward when China has an, ahem, heart to heart talk with them, and we will not stop them in exchange for control of the anti-American coward countries that would not fight by our side. We will not pay to rebuild their cities this time, nor will vaseline be offered when we bend them over. America asked nicely, now we will *tell* you miserable ingrates how things are going to be.
Okay maybe not quite that far, but it's fun to think about after learning how much my country is hated in this forum.
The Islam outreach sites are bragging about how many converts to Islam were gained by 911. I guess it's not just extremists after all. Ever see Star Trek? No Islamists in it. Know why? It takes place in the future >:-P
H. Franco Mussolini please take this quiz...
TRUE OR FALSE:
1. Islam has the most effective foreign lobby in Congress.
2. Islam has more of its adherents in President Clinton's cabinet than any other religious/ethnic/foreign entity.
3. Islam receives more U.S. economic help than any other region in the world.
4. Islam hates Jesus Christ more than any other religion.
5. Islam has been more active than anyone else in litigating suits against Christian symbols on public property in the U.S.
6. Islam has the most powerful secret spy organisation in North America. It collects many thousands of names of individuals and organisations in North America for its purposes of intrigue and influence. It possesses more influence upon law enforcement agencies than any other entity in North America.
7. Islam is the religion that teaches its adherents that they are supremely superior to all other people, the latter being merely animal-like.
How did you score? Here is our reply: all of the statements are FALSE. The only entity that meets these criteria is Talmudism/ Zionism.
-----
Usama bin Laden:
We are in a strong and brutal battle, like I have mentioned today, between us and the Jews, with Israel being the spearhead, and whomever backs it from Zionists and Crusaders. So we have not hesitated [lam natawarra`] in the killing of the Jews who conquered the sanctuary of our Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam). And the ones who kill our children and women and brothers night and day, and whomever stands in their trench, he only has himself to blame [falaa yalumnna illa nafsihi].
"The war is between us and the Jews," the newspaper quoted him as saying. "Any country that steps into the same trench as the Jews has only herself to blame."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,53157,00.html
How did you score? Here is our reply: all of the statements are FALSE. The only entity that meets these criteria is Talmudism/ Zionism.
Interesting quiz, but the influence you are implying exists in US government et cetera is not such an extreme form of Judaism. Most American Jews don't associate themselves with the orthodox faith. Furthermore, here's an eye opener for all non-Americans, the overwhelming majority of Americans couldn't care about the religion of Osama bin Laden or anyone one else. That comes from the environment we are brought up in. In the US you can have a fundamentalist Christian living next to a Wiccan who is married to an atheist, and no one cares. Certainly no one bothers blowing themselves up to get the government to convert to their religion.
If the current middle east, and the rest of history for that matter, only prove one thing, let it be that you can't have theocracies. Unless 99% of your population is of the same religious belief, a theocratic government will always be rought with turmoil and unjust treatment of those not within the fabric of that religion.
In terms of the US involvement in the Israel/Palestine conflict, that has to do with a number of factors, with the media skew being one of them. After reading many Islamic newspaper sites I have gotten a much different perspective on the situation than I have from the western press. That being said, neither side has an unbiased view. Furthermore, still nothing in the Islamic press has convinced me that blowing up civilians is justified in Israel or anywhere else (Ireland ring a bell). Of course the whole reason for the mess is because Muslims don't want to be ruled by non-Muslims and Jews don't want to be ruled by non-Jews. See how much of a tangled web the intertwining of religion ond goverment weaves.
Can't we all just get along? and that guy from the UK Mr. blair said with UN backing, even us US citizens are seeing the light that you can't go it alone with out the UN. Iraq should not happen unless the World is in agreement
If you look at the bomb droping on japan more lifes were saved by doing it then not.
they were saying 1 million american lifes would be lost in a main land japan attack.
Also stop bringing up things like that just look what saddam did to the Kurds in the North , the Europens did to Africa and so on and so on everyone does things they are not proud of people do you think bringing them up and making me feel bad is really going to help you in 2002? all it does is make americans mad if I just started off on "those euro trash" things like that what do you think you'd respond with???
I think through the UN we can work together to fix the problem and the american people will not let bush go in alone don't worry. Now can everyone please stop the american bashing I know it's fun but what good will it do? do you see the responces you are getting from other americans? maybe that's a hint so play nice and maybe if we work on our problems we can inprove the World and so on
Come on Dustin! How can you be so naive? It is possible that Saddam is killing or torturing his opponents but it is hard to believe that he bombs his own people with chemicals. This sounds as ridiculus as some conspiracy theories saying that CIA was behind the 11th Sept. attack. If Saddam was really that paranoid, his own people would have overthrown him. But the largest part of Iraq people seems to support him (for reasons that we don't know or maybe even don't understand) and that is why the US have trouble overthrowing him.
Saddam does not have a nice, open Democracy like all the little European countries. He has enemies, and he kills them with chemical weapons. Ordinary politicians use mud; fascist wannabes use weapons.
Achieving peace is a hard, difficult road and requires constant and absolute dedication.
Name one instance where peace has been achieved by pandering to powermad, totalitarian dictators.
Why are you wasting your breath insulting each other and each other's nationalities?
I couldn't care less about their nationalities. Stupidity is not limited to one particular nationality. Not even American. ;-)
You sound as if war or terrorism is like your computer war games. It is not like that. There are no "cool wars" - what an incredible statement! War and terrorism means people, human beings, being blown to bits, families destroyed, economies ruined, disease, ignornace, hunger, poverty, hopelessness. The kind of hopelessness that would lead teenagers to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up.
I fully understand the gravity of the situation. War is not cool. War is hell. But sometimes war is better than laying down our arms and surrendering to people who want nothing more than to kill us and drag our dead bodies through the streets laughing and jeering at the dead heretics.
The world is so small now, there is no more room for war. What good do you think will come from your insults and ill will? Nothing, absolutely nothing. If you want a challenge, you computer geniuses, take up the challenge of peace.
Peace is achieved by eliminating those who want to start wars. It has always been so. Are you so completely bereft of intelligence that you think Hitler would have been a nice, peaceful ruler if we had just surrendered to his invading troops?
My final comment is that violence solves nothing, it only adds to the pain suffering and hatered in the world. Be it violence against so called innocents or suspected criminals it doesn't solve anything, there are better ways to make people responsable for their actions.
*takes on happy goody two-shoes voice* Yes, by not defending yourselves you, too, can gain peace.
Sorry, but I want my peace *before* I go to heaven.
However, America does lend itself to become an adjective and that's why it's been used and the rest of the name has been truncated.
(Do we need to have this debate? Of all the useless...)
We are very aware of Britains involvement and appreciate it greatly. Seems Britain has one of the few governments that agrees with the philosopy of "freedom before peace". Right now, I think Tony Blaire is highly regarded in the U.S.
It is nice to see that there are some positive posts here. :-))
Thousands of innocent people from all over the world (it was the WORLD Trade Center that was destroyed) died on this day. Today should be a memorial day of rememberance-not an opportunity to get in some political spin. It's too bad some people want to get their cheap shot in instead of having some respect for the dead.
Yes, this thread was supposed to be about our experiences a year ago when all this happened. It is a shame that people posted stupid things on the level of "u dumbass americanz kilt 300,000 with bomb." Could they not have waited at least a day while we remember our dead?
Looking at all the Anti-American sentiment, all the feelings out there that we "got what was coming to us", I want to predict the future for you that hate America: We *will* go it alone. It will escalate out of control.
Hmm...just for the record, this was not at all what I meant when I said that we would probably have to go it alone. Upon rethinking the matter, we will not go it alone. Britain has been with us; Canada is likely to join, and I think that other nations will join as well.
At least they are all paying lip-service today. :-P
Can't we all just get along? and that guy from the UK Mr. blair said with UN backing, even us US citizens are seeing the light that you can't go it alone with out the UN. Iraq should not happen unless the World is in agreement
It all depends on whether the UN has the guts to authorize the use of force to rectify Iraq's failure to comply with the UN resolutions. It would look rather silly for the UN to say no. I think that once our case is made to them, they will say yes. Oh, they may stall a bit...to pretend that they are deep in thought, but they will authorize the use of force.
How sad that even with all your understanding you've chosen the path you've taken. I know a Christian with blue eyes and blonde hair. Jewish stores wouldn't take his merchandise on consignment, but Muslim stores would. Once he actually got fired from a part time job because the Jewish owner thought he started going to school. When he was a child, Jewish adults used to trip him as he walked past them. Many of us are not blind, many of us see this. We struggle not against Sins & Demmagogues, but against DEM's in Synagogues. But when you made your point by using our own citizens as flying weapons of death against their fellow man IT CHANGED EVERYTHING just as surely as Timothy McVeigh's actions caused every Skinhead to re-examine his allegiances. The Jews may want our children to grow up to be uneducated slaves to their children through things like credit card debt, BUT THEY DON'T FLY AIRPLANES FULL OF US INTO BUILDINGS FULL OF US. You've united us all now. There is no more White and Mexican, Jew and Skinhead, now we are all AMERICANS, and we're not going to forget what you did.
American triumphs:
- Independence from tyrannical, monarchial england.
- Reapeat above.
- Not coming over there and making colonies out all of europe 
- Kicking mexican butt in texas (2nd biggest state in the Union).
- Helping out in World War I.
- Winning World War II (this means smashing nazism, imperial japanism, and fascism) with some help from the British.
- Not coming over there and making colonies out all of europe
** The only failing here is we could not abolish muslimism(the kill everybody that isn't us religion), communism (take stuff away by force from people that have it to others that dont, so EVERYBODY is miserable), socialism (basicaly the same, but communistic wealth redistribution is "democratically" legislated), and globalist utopianism (everybody needs to belong to a COUNTRY, screw global socialistic/communistic tyranny).
- Establishing Israel as a soverign nation. Thumbs up to the Israelis for smashing the attempted Arab invasion and defending their home soil, and then keeping it so they can't be so easily invaded again. I am proud we supply advanced American arnaments to help keep them safe and to kill Palestenian militant terrorist cowards who convince ppl to go blow up innocent civilian Israelis. If Israel lets Palestenians have towns and civilization even after killing Israelis, and their Jordanian cousins put them in refugee camps, you tell me who is "racist," or mean or cruel or whatever....
- Economically grinding down the united soviet socialist republic (remember them?) and WINNING THE COLD WAR, no nukes required. Too bad we will not be able to do this to China, because the union bosses want to empower their communist friends by causing our manufacturing jobs to be shipped over there...
- Not coming over there and making colonies out all of europe We believe nations should mostly be left alone unless they are f- ing with other nations.
America is the greatest country on Earth. Followed closely by Britain and Israel, and maybe Australia. F all the rest of ya. All these other countries remind me of little children, or gangster ghetto thugs who are not mature enough to leave each other alone and not kill/hurt each other, so the big brothers or police or whoever has to come over and spank them so they behave. Just remember that whoever you are, wherever you are, you can thank the United States of America for you freedom to even look at and post on this page, that it even exists.
note: all alphabetical capitalization omitted has been omitted on purpose, to convey the relative worth of each word.
P.S. G.W. didn't "steal" the election, saw that in some of the moronic posts a few pages back, I think...
Makes me feel quite sick, not from anti-American (who personally I feel should not post if all they are going to do is flame) but the Americans who have take a thread meant to show some form of respect to people effected by, killed or survived the horrific attack on the WTC, and turned it into mindless bickering and one-up-man-ish.
Well, here is my virtual candle for all none-combatants affected by war.
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[candle from: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/7373/xmas.htm#candle ]
Your link doesn't lead to a candle, but there is a nice looking woman in a bra. I think that's even better.
Thousands of innocent people from all over the world (it was the WORLD Trade Center that was destroyed) died on this day. Today should be a memorial day of rememberance-not an opportunity to get in some political spin. It's too bad some people want to get their cheap shot in instead of having some respect for the dead.
I totally agree with you.
I think the only reason you are seeing so much negativity is that there are some posters here today who feel that those people's deaths were deserved and more death should be doled out to atone for some percieved wrongdoing on our part.
On the anniversary of such a murderous and cowardly act, I think people's ires are raised just a bit at the spewers of such ignorant drivel.
It seems like there is alot of anti American sentiment from some Europeans regarding "America's" international behavior. Well, stop funding it. As I read these posts, I only have one vision. A European sitting in a Boeing airplane running on fuel processed by Exxon, drinking a Coke, eating a leftover McDonald's burger typing on his Intel based IBM thinkpad with a 3Com ethernet card and batteries from General Electric running Microsoft Windows occasionaly glancing at the Disney movie being played, just hoping to get home in time to watch Star Trek and praying his girlfriend is not playing her Michael Jackson CD collection too loud.
America's power comes from corporations. Corporate power comes from consumers. And none of the above mentioned companies were larger than life until hitting Europe. The vast majority of American corporate revenue is from international consumers. And I am willing to bet none of you have had a gun pointed at your head, and if you did it was a Smith and Wesson that you purchased.
Gee Dubya was put into power by companies being funded by international consumers. Are you getting how this works now? If you don't like the U.S. then stop giving us money. Everyday you send billions over here whether we need it or not.
Finally, 9-11 is about freedom to Americans. In case any of you forget, that is our history. Remember? The U.S. has always been consistent on this issue. It is our defining cultural quality. If Americans feel that an external force is trying to remove our liberties or control us through tyranny and fear we will fight back. And that means whether anyone is with us or not. Again, check our history. We have been consistent on this. Does any country really doubt whether provoking the U.S. will result in retaliation? I think not. So don't run up and kick us then go tell the teacher that we are picking on you.
So, if you don't want to deal with the U.S. then it is simple. Don't buy our goods and don't fly planes into our buildings. But, right now both are happening.
Hey Hmm, better catch up on the news - Clinton isn't President anymore <g>.
Peace!
null, is it I who am bereft of intelligence? You think peace is always achieved bu eliminating those who are against it? Well, it depends on what kind of peace you're talking about. The Pax Romana was enforced peace - is that what you're speaking of? Have you ever heard of Ghandi? Of Martin Luther king, Jr.? I don't think you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. I am getting to be old - I was in a nasty little war in Southeast Asia and I saw what war is and what it does. It is not the way.
However, I believe Bush is going in, no matter what. To paraphrase Bette Davis, fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
September 11 is also the date - in 1973 - when a coup encouraged by the US overthrew a democratically elected government in Chile. The official death toll in Chile, 3,197, was remarkably close to the number of lives lost to terror 28 years later in America. This disquieting piece of deja vu passed unremarked in American coverage.
Empower the UN.
The UN should be made aware of all international arms deals and all international funding. Prevent countries like America, UK, Russia (before it's financial collapse), China, or any other powerful country from supplying arms and finance without it being explicit to the world that it is doing so. The UN needs to be able to punish those who covertly trade in arnaments and blood money.
Then you will see a decline in the underhand selling / provision of military hardware that all governments partake in and you will see a decline in the hatred towards countries who no longer will be able to finance wars in self-interest. You will see a decline in terrorist activities as people will be unable to fund their organisations without severe repercussions.
You guys find a way to get relief from such a huge pain.
And that we all, victims, attackers and bystanders (who can really say he's not also a victim or attacker?), at least, learn something from this.
It's sad that someone thought that flying planes into the twin towers was a good idea.
It's sad that the USA leadership does not understand why that happened.
Nowadays,
everyone is suppose to speak english, much better.
Nowadays, US is going to attack Irack just to get its petrol reserv, just as US attack afghanistan to take control over the caspian petrol road, if it was just to avange the 9/11's victims, I'm sure they could kill Oussama ben laden, just as Al queida did to kill Massoud commander.
Why did they bring all the Us army to take control on an entire country made of stones and mountain ?
It's only a matter of energy control and way of getting it.
American people just don't know how to think.
in france we have a proverb
"la dictature c'est ferme ta gueule
la democratie c'est cause toujours"
(dictature is "shut up"
democraty is "keep talking" (or talk to my ass)"
"The Matrix is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth." - Morpheus
You can watch your television and read the mainstream news for the blue pill.
Or you can start clicking, reading, and thinking. And free your mind.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
http://www.bushnews.com
http://www.jihadunspun.com
http://www.thememoryhole.org
http://www.disinfo.com
http://www.indymedia.org
http://www.statewatch.org
http://208.187.163.46/completetimeline/index.htm
http://www.opensecrets.org/index.asp
http://www.unansweredquestions.org
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/high_resol...
http://www.freespeech.org
http://globalresearch.ca
http://emperors-clothes.com
http://www.mathaba.net
http://cryptome.org
http://www.newswithviews.com/patriot/patriotism5.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul52.html
http://www.smirkingchimp.com
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/remember.html
Lastly, a moment of silence and sadness for all the people, from all countries, who have perished due to terrorism and war.
And especially on this day, for the Americans who died a year ago, September 11, 2001. Let us honor our brothers and sisters. They gave their lives for something greater than themselves. Let us be grateful for their sacrifice and never falter in our defense of the freedoms and morality that make America a great nation.
--
"A bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular; and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inferences."
Thomas Jefferson, founding father of America
> Yes, let us also remember that America is the only country
> to have used Nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, chosen
> apparantly because of their large populations. Let us mark
> the day that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed too.
I hope you don't intend to imply (as so many have tried) the
'Great Evil' of the US in using the atomic bomb to end the
second world war. This is not ment to disparage the original
author (about which I know nothing), but today's Politically
Correct generation should try reading history books, instead
of rewriting them to their liking.
Let us not forget the context of the usage of those weapons.
Remember Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Saipan,
Bougainville, Makin and Tarawa? The US war planners
were looking at an invasion of Japan, like the one in
Europe, scheduled for late 1946. After seeing the body count
in the South Pacific theater, estimates for the invasion
went as high as several hundred thousand Allied casualties
and Japanese casualties in the millions. They chose the
lesser of two evils. It's all too easy to look back almost
60 years after the fact, from the comfort of our easy chairs,
and criticize those decisions. Thankfully, no one has had
to make similar decisions since then.
He who rises up to kill us.... We will preemt it and kill him first!
PRAX, USA
I just found this at The Daily Mirror:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12188969&met...
SHAME ON YOU AMERICAN-HATING LIBERALS
Tony Parsons
ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting - the mass murder of thousands, live on television.
As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.
An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.
Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.
But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance.
Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.
There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic.
And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.
America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood.
A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon?
And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?
What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognised them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives. And children. Some unborn.
And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?
These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.
The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.
The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.
Remember, remember.
Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.
Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum. Remember, remember - and realise that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.
So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex.
So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.
AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength.
American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?
When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism". A real war.
The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell", if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.
The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth.
The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.
But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.
I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic.
Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.
Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers.
Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper.
And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein.
Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange centre, oh mighty one!
Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.
No, do more than remember. Never forget.
PRAX, i would put it to you that after a historical analysis of conflicts involving the US, you would find that the US forces did not do well at all when their technology and weapons were placed outside their area of intended use.
I would appeal to your lower instincts (and you appear to be well endowed in that region) by suggesting that person-to-person, the US forces would suffer severe trauma to their posteriors. Face it - US soldiers would much rather be chewing gum, watching TV and eating doughnuts. Why? Because they have nothing worth defending.
I fear that nothing external will crush the US Empire... so i wait patiently for the US empire to crumble from within, rotting from complaceny and obesity. Like so manty empires before it.
"but today's Politically
Correct generation should try reading history books, instead
of rewriting them to their liking"
Well said. They should also condemn all violent death. For example, FARC's idiotic campaign in colombia has killed tens of thousands of people. It is back by poeple poking their noses (to quote C) in other peoples business. Who is helping finance and TRAin FARC? Cuba. There are also reports that ETA (the basque terrorist group that escapes spanish authority by going to france) and the IRA are helping train them. There are reports that Chavez of venezuela is helping. Yet no complaints in this group about cuba. None about russia. None about serbia (who russia supported by the way). None about china, none about N. Korea (want a ballistic missile or nuclear bomb we'll help) None about packistan, NOne about india. None about iraq, None about Sudan. None about Iran. None about Somalia....etc.
To all of you US Bashers. STop being hypocrits. All violent death is wrong and none of it should be ignored. If you want to stand up against wrongs then be consistent. If you just point out US wrongs then you are demonstrating your true motives which are not altruism.
ryan, are you saying that the US does not shirk from violent death as a means to its own ends?
I happen to have very strong political views that here in the USA are called "radical" (for reasons unknown to me, since to me they are just rational, but this is irrelevant now), but fra from being please, i was among those very disappointed to see this news posted here.
I is indeed sad that neither the poster of the message nor the editors here could see that posting such a news topic here would offend by itself many poeple (and i was one of them) and that the hurt reaction of those who took offense would in turn offend and hurt those (not only americans) that felt brutalized by the attacks, even if they were so lucky as not to loose any person dear to them.
I know for sure the editors of this site are not cynics that are ready do anything to get more contacts a day, but this only makes the whole thing worse, in a sense.
What did you expect by posting this message? Could you really not see all the useless pain and offense that the following discussion would have created? It was so easy to predict ...
I read this thread very carefully, and the discussion was exactly as superficial, emotional and (at times) offensive as I had imagined. Nothing so low as the discussion going on in political newsgroups, of course, but not far from it in content, if not in aggressive language.
Everything so predictable, I could have written half the messages myself, almost word by word: the american atrocities, the USA only source of freedom, hiroshima, the holocaust .. everything.
The sad fact is we are deeply divided: most americans do not understand at all why can somone hate us so much, and we do not even try to discover why. Who cares where the attackers came from and what they thought? And why should we try to understand them at all when it is so easy to call them terrorists and fanatics, as if they were aliens from outer space? But the really worrying fact is that even when we have the will to honestly discover why, we find we do not have the knowledge, the information to do so. Many intelligent, informed, poeple (including the president) are deeply convinced the situation in Israel/Palestine has nothing to do with the attacks, and that the crisis in the middle east can go on without any repercassion on the "war on terror". The fact that hundreds of millions of mulsims and arabs feel otherwise about the issue is immaterial, it seems.
On the other hand, the non-americans here feel flabbergasted that such a tragedy makes the front pages the world over, and feel their own tragedies are forgotten. When these tragedies are much worse than any average american can imagine(even after 9-11), and when they think the USA allowed those tragedies to happen, then you begin to feel all these celebrations as an insult, a statement that their deads are remembered and vindicated, but your deads are nothing.
Many people here did make an effort to be civil and factual, but that did not lead the whole discussion anywhere. The fact is that we live in a completely de-ideologized and de-politiczed time, where not even the idea of social and politival confrontation or discussion or struggle is possible. Which does not mean that confrontation and struggle do no longer exist, of course, but only that we cannot take part in it as free individuals, aware of the situation, and responsible of our choices.
it is all very sad ...
I am saying if you are truly against violence then stand up against all wrongs, stand up against all violence and yes that includes violence from the US.
But no one is this group (other the obviously US-based) is willing to look at violence unless it is somehow connected to the US. I already know, they'll say the US kills more people. BS! BS! BS! Look at the problems in kashmir and throughout india and packistan. Look at the civil wars in africa and in colombia. Look the chinese governments crusades and those of russia in Chechyna. Look at ETA in spain. Look at the treatment of the Kurds by just about every arab/muslim country (thinking iraq and turkey). Look at who is making things worse in israel (sharon is the standard line but what about support for hamas and hezbollah by Sryia, iran, etc. Oh and by the way, those children in iraq are dying because saddam diverts funds intended for those children by the various UN oil for food/medicine programs for weapons systems from places like china. Saadaam is happy to let those children die because it is good publicity, which is about as sick as it comes.
Or in other words be consistent and thorough instead of just uniformily singling out the US and letting all other wrongs go without notice. If you truly care about wrongs then you'd see it all but most of the US-bashers have a serious case of tunnel vision.
Thanks. As one American, I really appreciate your kind,
thoughtful words, the support of Prime Minister Blair and
the people of the UK. Sometimes, I get a little sick of
seeing the U.S. being kicked in the teeth for everything
that happens around the world. When you can't even send
food to people without them getting mad at you, I'd say
it's time to cut the foreign aid to a trickle. Send help
to the people who appreciate it. Leave the rest alone.
First of all my compassion to all the victims of 9/11.
Beeing an european i might have a different look on US than you will have. I rather like the americans and i'm very grateful that they liftet the dust from good old conservative europe after WW-II. Especially my country (coming from austria) was gently turned to "modern" live by adopting the american way of live in some way.
But US politics are dirty, at least sometimes. This fabulous "desert storm operation" was aimed at the oil. Period. And several of those "anti-comunism-actions" were at least questionable. But europe is no better at all or china on india or ..! Do you really think they act differenty. Wake up! If it comes to real power things get dirty regardles of the nation concerned. It applies almost everywhere. Let me put it in blunt words. America is big so its dropplings are big too. But the smaller ones also stink.
Resumee:
Dont be naive! We, the citizens in the western world share a good living because of exploiting the weakness of the third world by letting the politics do the dirt-work. And we are not universally loved due to that fact.
null, is it I who am bereft of intelligence? You think peace is always achieved bu eliminating those who are against it? Well, it depends on what kind of peace you're talking about. The Pax Romana was enforced peace - is that what you're speaking of? Have you ever heard of Ghandi? Of Martin Luther king, Jr.? I don't think you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
How do any of those people have anything to do with powermad dictators? With the situations that existed in Afghanistan and presently exist in Iraq? Somehow I do not think that Saddam will stop researching nuclear weapons if we all refuse to sit on the back of Iraqi buses like Rosa Parks. Can you mention an example that is relevant to my argument?
I am getting to be old - I was in a nasty little war in Southeast Asia and I saw what war is and what it does. It is not the way.
How does being in one war qualify you to make such an absolute statement? War is not the way? What should we have done with Hitler? And why wouldn't taking out Hitler as soon as he broke his treaty obligations have prevented World War II? You do not seem to understand that war is a last resort used to protect freedom and prevent future destruction.
I suppose I will never understand why pacifists view anyone who does not agree that all war is a evil not-very-nice thingy as a little runny-nosed kid who sits around playing Quake all day on his Pop's PC.
Empower the UN.
The UN is about as effective as a bunch of sputtering firecrackers, and I do not think that either America or Russia will assent to bend over and let themselves be spanked by the UN. Frankly, American policy decisions should be dealt with in American elections by having an informed and educated populace.
It's sad that someone thought that flying planes into the twin towers was a good idea.
It's sad that the USA leadership does not understand why that happened.
The US leadership understands exactly why that happened. Oppressive dictators blame America for their problems and indoctrine their people via their absolute control over the educational system. What is sad is that the Arab leaders understand the problem, yet they do nothing to eliminate it.
(Well, null, what else did you expect the people to do when their leaders keep screaming, "Death to the heretics!" all over the public radio. Send us flowers?)
American people just don't know how to think.
*falls off chair laughing*
It's all too easy to look back almost 60 years after the fact, from the comfort of our easy chairs, and criticize those decisions. Thankfully, no one has had
to make similar decisions since then.
Damn right! Why is it that we only hear of the deaths that occurred, not the ones they prevented?
ryan, are you saying that the US does not shirk from violent death as a means to its own ends?
No, of course not. However, our violent deaths prevent many more violent deaths. There is some sense in killing a minority of people who desire to take over the world, which Hitler demonstrated. Too bad that Europe ignored the problem until they were pushed off the continent, but they did turn around and help out *after* all those millions of lives were lost. I suppose we should be grateful for *that*, at least.
in this century history was always written by the usa and another community (.).
so don't believe what you see on tv!
Americans stop making a saint of your army and its acts. Your army isn't any more good or any more moral than the armies you denounce evil. If the US army has its hands clean, why did the US renounced the world court treaty? And don't tell me that when the US army comits war crimes it does that for the good of humanity.
Probably you haven't heard of the news at all, so read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1970312.stm
I find this whole discussion rather sad.
What have Americans done to deserve all this jealousy and hatred.
And I am ashamed of the Europeans on here. We share so much with America, language, history, customs. Most Americans are just emigrated Europeans who have made thier country successful.
Shouldn't we be saving this hatred for the dictator's and religious fanatics around the world.
About the only thing I can agree on is that moslems do appear to be stuck in the past. They need to modernise and start working towards making their own countries and communities happy and wealthy rather than picking on rich successful countries (who incidentally got rich by nothing more special than hard work and commitment) In a nutshell don't blame us that you are backward and poor. Sort your problems out and then we will start taking you seriously.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859843980/
Reading this may give you a hint why the world dislikes the US as a country. With supporting and protecting such scum, you won't ever gain any respect as a nation.
In response to:
I would appeal to your lower instincts (and you appear to be well endowed in that region) by suggesting that person-to-person, the US forces would suffer severe trauma to their posteriors. Face it - US soldiers would much rather be chewing gum, watching TV and eating doughnuts. Why? Because they have nothing worth defending.
Thanks for the insults Allende. All I have to say to you is: Come to the USA and attack us. I am not a soldier, but I will be on the FRONT LINES shooting at you!
PRAX
null, that is why peace is difficult and hard rather than the easy road. You can not even imagine it.
PRAX, have you ever wondered which is the only nation on this globe that has its flag burned somewhere every single day of the year?
And have you asked why this might be the case?
"PRAX, have you ever wondered which is the only nation on this globe that has its flag burned somewhere every single day of the year?
And have you asked why this might be the case?'
Jealousy?
Allende:
Jealousy knows no bounds
We make the F-22 Raptor for people with your mindset
http://www.f-22raptor.com/
PRAX
"Americans stop making a saint of your army and its acts. Your army isn't any more good or any more moral than the armies you denounce evil. If the US army has its hands clean, why did the US renounced the world court treaty? And don't tell me that when the US army comits war crimes it does that for the good of humanity."
Why would the us allow a bunch of envious, anti-US, hate mongers to cast judgement on its soldiers? It should not and i hope it does not. What a joke. China, russian, france and Iran are going to cast judgement on US soldiers. No way. Veto it again just for emphasis.
Right on Ryan. The UN is good for nothing!
PRAX
Yeah, right. They are wimps when it comes judging your sins, they are fine when they are to judge eg Milocevic's sins. US insisted on arresting Milocevic and sending him to international trial. What a hipocrisy!
If you think that the international court are a bunch of wimps, you shouldn't have send anyone there. But what US seems to want is to have an international court under its commands, not an independent one.
And with what accusations would China and France send your so inocent soldiers to a trial? I can't remember any harm done by the US army. Or are they gonna set up a story to trap your soldiers? Just like you set up stories to set up Iraqi soldiers?
I am an American. On my fathers side, my ancestors were Irish, and fled the poverty and repression rife in Ireland in the early 1900's. On my mother's side, my family is French. They came to America, by way of Canada, where the first of our line on this continent helped to establish the french presence in the New World by founding the city of Montreal in the 1600's.
I am proud that I am descended from hard working Irish, who were looking for a better life for their sons and daughters. I am proud to be descended from a courageous adventurous Frenchman, who came to an untamed land with the intention of taming it.
I am proud that my maternal great-grandfather got to return to the land of his ancestors in 1917, albeit in a trench, to defend it from the Germans, as an American. I am proud that in the 1940's my paternal grandfather was stationed in the country of those who had oppressed and starved his father, and defended it from attack by the Germans, and helped liberate the land of my maternal ancestry.
On Semptember 11, 2002, I was proud of my countrymen, who no matter what their race, or creed, or color - stopped what they were doing, and helped as little or as much as they could. I am proud that I was able to give blood 1500 miles away to help.
What the rest of the world fails to realize is that though we may seem fractured and seperated from each other by race or class or religion, when our country truly needs us we are one. Nowhere in the world has such unity of mind and purpose ever appeared - not in Ancient Greece, or Rome, or China. Not even in the British Empire.
When we are truly united, and we have a "job" to do - you can be sure it will be done, be done quickly, and be done right. And, with the anti-American sentiment of the rest of the world, you had best hope that the "job" need not be done to you. Americans are quick to forgive, but we do not forget. You would do well to hope that we have "forgiven" you in your nation's next time of trouble, lest we "forget" you.
It' a pity what the world's opinion of America has become. Perhaps we should follow the wisdom of our first President and "avoid foreign entanglements". We could watch the decay of the world from the comfort and safety of our living rooms, in front of our big screen TV's, wasting food and water.
the us is a sovereign nations that needs to plan is actions according its own interests without sujecting its soldiers to the whinnning and envious UN member cry babies.
if this os news group is at all indicative of people outside the US then it is fairly obvious that US soldiers will be guilty before falsely proven guilty for media hype.
Oh and i dont agree with the US actions against Milocevic. I beleive he should have been dealt with by his own country men not by the UN. I find it ridiculous that anyone in the UN, the US or the EU ( all have blood on their hands) would be bold enough to cast judgement on anyone.
Right on Ryan. The UN is good for nothing!
Yeah, right. Who needs a UN that criticises our actions? Screw them! Screw the UN supported Kyoto pact! Screw them all! Screw those stupid Europeans who look like incarnations of Mohandas Ghandi!
Kill-kill-kill!
learn to read please.
I supported the actions to stop serbia. I support the Kyoto agreement. I don't support war with iraq (though have no problem with taking out sadaam).
What i don't support is the hypocrisy of the US, the UN and the EU casting judgement on milosevic. I don't see why the winning murderers get to cast judgement on the losing ones. Read the note. Milosevic should be dealt with by his own.
Reading this may give you a hint why the world dislikes the US as a country. With supporting and protecting such scum, you won't ever gain any respect as a nation.
That just shows how narrow minded and small you are. Kill Americans because Henry Kissinger was a bad man. You are pathetic.
Nobody ever said that the US doesn't have wicked people in it. They do. We also have our share of morons; the dumbest of which have migrated into congress and the senate. The difference is that most muslims can't grasp the concept that one American (or even a handfull) doesn't equal all Americans. You act like we go through society and hand pick these people to be our leaders. That isn't how it works (especially now).
Regardless of the process of our government, most muslims are narrow minded drones who believe all kinds of propaganda spoon fed to them; which propaganda is molded to cause hatred for America (in much the same way, I imagine, Hitler stirred up his people to hate and eventually kill six million Jews).
To give an example, on September 11, 2001, I worked with a staunch muslim from Egypt. When I arrived at work, I didn't throw rocks at him. I didn't push him down the stairs. I didn't kidnap him and tourture him to death. I treated him just as I always had. As a friend.
Most muslims on the other hand (and this is proved I think by many of the obvious muslim posts) would be happy to grab the first white guy they could find and do all of the above, and more, to exact revenge for the purported "evil" of America. I don't know, perhaps a certain reporter who was killed last year might come to mind.
What i don't support is the hypocrisy of the US, the UN and the EU casting judgement on milosevic. I don't see why the winning murderers get to cast judgement on the losing ones. Read the note. Milosevic should be dealt with by his own.
So what you are saying is that you don't understand why wicked people can pass judgement on other wicked people. I think everyone is wicked to some level. Nobody is perfect. By your logic, all evil should go unpunished. I disagree.
The Kyoto treaty is a joke. So are all environmentalists.
"The rain forest will be gone..." Have you ever flown over the damn thing? It's bigger than the entire US and satelite photos show it is NOT deminishing.
"Humans are causing global warming..." Studies have shown the biggest contributor to global warming is carbon dioxide. If you want it lowered, I suggest all the environmentalists ante up to the cause and stop breathing. Try it for a year and tell us if you notice an improvement.
the Kyoto treaty is a grab for power; nothing else. Fortunately the US has a leader right now who is bright enough not to fall for it. I can only imagine what would have happened if Cardboard Cutout had won the last election. Ugh!
"Screw those stupid Europeans who look like incarnations of Mohandas Ghandi!"
Do you mean the ones who were running the concentration camps in Yugoslavia? Do you mean Europeans like Le Pen, like Franco, like Mussolini, like Hitler, like Lenin, etc, etc, etc??? Or do you mean the voters who supported them?
OOOPS! They must have all been Americans!!!! Thank you Mourga for enlightening us all.
I can only imagine what would have happened if Cardboard Cutout had won the last election. Ugh
Lol: Camel
I hope that guy doesn't run again What a loser!
PRAX
Kill Americans because Henry Kissinger was a bad man.
Never said that. I just said that people like Henry Kissinger make US look evil to the rest of the world. This is the US as a country, not the American citizen as an individual. American citizens must act again their share of morons. I truly believe that Americans are good people as individual. But giving power to such scum makes them look evil as a whole.
"Do you mean the ones who were running the concentration camps in Yugoslavia? Do you mean Europeans like Le Pen, like Franco, like Mussolini, like Hitler, like Lenin, etc, etc, etc??? Or do you mean the voters who supported them?"
All of them have been taken care of. Today Europe talks about peace. Why don't you take care of your war mongers and talk about peace too?
Also you must confuse Lenin with Stalin. Unless you mean the old joke "all comunists are evil".
Americans stop making a saint of your army and its acts. Your army isn't any more good or any more moral than the armies you denounce evil. If the US army has its hands clean, why did the US renounced the world court treaty? And don't tell me that when the US army comits war crimes it does that for the good of humanity.
Maybe we would stop making a saint out of our army if we knew how we were doing it.
What have Americans done to deserve all this jealousy and hatred.
We exist.
null, that is why peace is difficult and hard rather than the easy road. You can not even imagine it.
Jay, that is why peace is difficult and hard rather than the easy road. You cannot even imagine it. Do you really think that parading around on a white horse championing pacifism is going to stop those chemical and biological weapons from being used against us?
Yeah, right. They are wimps when it comes judging your sins, they are fine when they are to judge eg Milocevic's sins. US insisted on arresting Milocevic and sending him to international trial. What a hipocrisy!
The UN talks. And talks. And talks and talks and talks. And talks and talks and talks and talks and talks and talks. And talks and talks and talks and talks and talks and talks and talks. But they never *do* anything unless the US threatens to do it for them.
The UN wants to ask Saddam to comply with UN resolutions that the UN is supposed to enforce. Saddam will accept, just like he has done in the past; then he will kick the inspectors out, just like he has done in the past; then the UN will ask Saddam to comply, just as they have done in the past; then Saddam will refuse, just as he has done in the past; then America will threaten to enforce the resolutions, just as it has done in the past; then the UN and the international community will help out, just as they have done in the past; then the UN will tell the US to pull out and ask Saddam to comply with the resolutions which he simply will not do, just as he has done in the past.
How many times must this cycle of incompetence and meaningless resolutions that will never be enforced continue before you bumbling idiots realize that Saddam must go?
Peace Sells... But Who's Buying?
Megadeth - 1986
PRAX
Think about this...
Does Microsoft evil?...
Everybody know about MS Monopolistic actions, the Computer Manufacturers Threats and presures to prevent they to sell computers with other OS than Microsoft ones or Whitout any installed.
Oviously Mocrosoft's practices prevent the free commerce modeling, forcing to do what it whant's.
Thing about Be's trial against Microsoft, The BeUnited settlement and all other trying to stop Microsoft bad practices. The states in trial against Microsoft can't stop it, MS money, power and influence overpass the justice (in a "free and justice country" ). Why? Economic Benefits.
Look at this. Windows as OS look's great, is easy and everybody knows about it. But really it work's bad, doesn't like at all, etc. There are too much ways to do the things better, but it's hard to leave MS products. Al the enviroment third parties and hardware vendors may be compatible with MS and agree at it's practices because it's necesarely to survive in computer market.
I bought a computer with Windows 98 preinstalled, I didn't want it, but the seller fear penalties if they sell Computer without MS Windows Preinstalled software. ¿Where are my costumer selection right? ¿What I can do if it's the computer I want?
MS have access at opensourced code and can use at it's own becouse we can't know if they are using these code.
Any OS that want's growth has to fight against MS and it's Power and control, and MS does anything to kill it. It could be a exceptional OS, but MS never leave it grow.
Here (in Guatemala) the MS Windows XP home edition (internet activated) Retail price is 110US$ (OEM). If our minimun "obligatory" salary are equivalent to "90 US$" and the average efective income per capita is around 60 US$, How do you think that we can progress, if when we do something good for our country you revert it "because it's protecting its own self interest"?
Microsoft and the "BSA" are in "Witch Hunt" here, in my country, Taking off our computers looking for any licence agreement violation, and all that they do.
And now think about this,
How BeOS or other product can grow if MS doesn't permit it.
In this OS worl MS act as the US on the Human World.
How any little country can grow if US doesn't permit.
Listen people I'm just going to stop caring you hate us americans god damn what the fuck is wrong with you did you not read my post, all you do is attack us how about I hate you huh??? Just look at the UK they don't hate us so what are they>? evil now? how about you just fuck off and leave us alone and thanks to all the UK love, I guess it just shows you who your real friends are and if I ever meet any of you fuckers I'm going to punch you in the face
null, I have to be honest - I cannot claim to be a pacifist. I wish I could, but I have not reached those heights <g>. All I can claim is to have seen the horrible fruits of war and the desire to avoid it unless there is absolutely no other option. The thing that especially concerns me is that we are in this new, post-cold war world where the things that were achieved with the old Soviet Union like "balance of power" don't apply anymore. There has not really been time for a "world view" to develop and a basic plan of action - and a consensus among nations about what to do with lunatics who could have access to weapons of mass destruction and have shown in the past they are crazy enough to possibly use them. The USA, being the superpower, obviously is looked to be the leader. For example, I am very concerned about secondary effects if the US takes Saddam out...what ripple effect will occur in the region? This morning, in addressing the U.N., Bush did not speak to these things. Ah well, it is a new world with many dangerous places and lots of mistakes out there waiting to be made. But, I admit, one of those potential mistakes could be not doing anything. Nobody knows for sure.
As this wild discussion winds down, the power of feeling regarding the USA and other issues has really had a deep affect on me. In that sense, I'm glad there was this discussion. OSNews posters never hold back <g>. It has forced me to examine and take into consideration the viewpoints of others. Thank you!
> -- Hiroshima: at least 300.000 people dead because the usa
> could not wait a couple of weeks to win the war.
>
> -- Nagasaki: at least 300.000 dead because the usa could
> not wait a couple of weeks to win the war.
Not according to this:
http://www.csi.ad.jp/ABOMB/
Hiroshima: between 180,000 to 200,000
Nagasaki: between 70,000 to 80,000
"...because the usa could not wait a couple of weeks to
win the war."?
Evidently, you've not looked up the casualties lists in
the Pacific theater either. The Japanese had a philosophy
of death before surrender, fight to the last man.
Battle of Tarawa: 4,718 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Guadalcanal: 14,800 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Iwo Jima: 20,000 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Saipan: 31,000 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Bougainville: 41,000 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Okinawa: 107,539 Japanese soldiers killed.
This alone accounts for almost 220,000 men and is by no
means a comprehensive list. These casualties were for tiny
specks of land in the middle of the ocean. Can you imagine
the number of dead in an invasion of the Japanese homeland?
No sir, the war wouldn't have been won in a "couple of
weeks."
I don't believe the moral "holier-than-thou's" today have
a clue of what was actually happening back then, or why people came to the decisions they did.
Is it really jealosy?
If it was jealosy of 'freedom' wouln't they have attacked the netherlands instead?
If it was jeaslosy of 'wealth' wouldn't they have attacked switzerland?
If it was jealosy of technology, wouldn't they have attacked japan?
Think about it... They hate you because of your actions. Your foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?
Actually, that is a poor analogy. Does Microsoft give billions of dollars each year to it competition. The US does. Does Microsoft help it's competition to gain equipment? The US does (i.e. food donations). Does Microsoft lend it's competition workers when they need aid? The US does (i.e. Peace Core, firemen, rescue workers, etc.).
Is this the most posts an article has recieved on OSNews (I know the trothless "Greeks are Stupid" article was close).
> Think about it... They hate you because of your actions. Your > foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples
> countries, and the terrorists will go home?
You mean stop supporting Isarel, or anyone else the terrorist
would like to wipe off the face of the Earth?
hmm looks like it. Nothing like 1000 year old problems to bring out the weirdos
"Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?"
You mean give other nations billions each year in foreign aid, but not attempt to influence it's use? There's the problem. Everyone seems to want it both ways. Give us money, food, equipment, technology, then mind your own business.
The Greek thread hit the limit as this one is about to do, I think <g>.
"Think about it... They hate you because of your actions. Your foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?"
The terrorists represent the last front of a deeply fundamental conservative religion that is being threatened by westernized values. They are the last hold out of a way of life that is far from modern. They loathe our culture and everything about us. The muslim world, which has never gone through a reform or modernization, is now surrounded by liberalized western values and society. Some members of this world have taken to fundamentalism to fight off that change and westernization. This is not new. its roots go back at least 100 years and are quite pronounced after WWII when the arab states become independent. At that time, pro western rulers tried to embark on rapid westernization. Resistance occurred then as now.
They won't go away regardless of our policy. What they hate is far deeper than just our policy it is the fabric of our society, our culture, and values and its influence. Change your policy for better and they'll find another reason to hate you. The US is on the top of the hate list but Europe is probably number 2 with Russia at number 3. Europe is not immune to this so be careful what you say. You will be on the receiving end of islamic terrorism. It is just a matter of time.
I'm not done talking to you anti-american people
In response to:
"Think about it... They hate you because of your actions. Your foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?"
Hey Hmmm.
Nobody wants to fight the "little guy"! What would that prove?
We the (USA) are always the target when other peoples shiznit don't work out! People/Terrorist will always "find" "their reason" for doing anything! Don't you forget that!
PRAX, USA
> Is this the most posts an article has recieved on OSNews
The record is 281 comments.
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=1620
Is it really jealosy?
No, as I said in an earlier post, I think that they are doing the same thing as Hitler did 60 years ago. Only American's are the ones being demonized for the most part; although the Jews are still mixed in there somehow.
By demonizing another group of people, the peckers they have for leaders in the Middle East are able to rally support for themselves from everyone under them. This makes them rich and powerful.
I think that is mostly what it is. It may also be that they think America is run by Jews and supports the Jews and they hate them for whatever reason.
Think about it... They hate you because of your actions. Your foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?
I sincerely think this is an excuse, not a reason.
null, I have to be honest - I cannot claim to be a pacifist. I wish I could, but I have not reached those heights <g>. All I can claim is to have seen the horrible fruits of war and the desire to avoid it unless there is absolutely no other option.
If you do not believe that all war is evil, then I agree with that much. I myself said that war is a last resort - how does that make me incapable of imagining a peaceful world? I'm not exactly like that hick sheriff in the James Bond movies, you know! ;-)
The thing that especially concerns me is that we are in this new, post-cold war world where the things that were achieved with the old Soviet Union like "balance of power" don't apply anymore. There has not really been time for a "world view" to develop and a basic plan of action - and a consensus among nations about what to do with lunatics who could have access to weapons of mass destruction and have shown in the past they are crazy enough to possibly use them.
Weapons of mass destruction in the modern world are at least roughly equivalent to massive armies in the pre-atomic era, and dictators today are also roughly equivalent. Such rulers still use genocide, propaganda, terrorism, starvation, and poverty to control their people. There is little hope that a rebellion will oust these people from power, and even less that the replacements installed by the leaders of the revolutions will be any better. American attempts to influence the outcomes of these revolutions through the sale of arms and other supplies have not produced stable governments. The only way to remove these oppressive regimes from power is through the use of force from the outside.
The problem is that weapons of mass destruction are even more dangerous than the armies commanded by Hitler in World War II. A dictator who acquires a few nuclear warheads without disclosing their exact location could effectively hold the US for ransom. One ICBM or SLBM could be launched and less than thirty minutes later millions of Americans would be dead. We have no means of shooting down or reprogramming these missiles once they are launched, nor could the target city or cities be evacuated in such short notice.
We *must* prevent people who would like to see millions of Americans dead from acquiring such weapons. It is not an option.
The USA, being the superpower, obviously is looked to be the leader.
By whom? The people who continually post ridiculous anti-American crud whenever the US is mentioned? Or our allies which happen to be quite few?
For example, I am very concerned about secondary effects if the US takes Saddam out...what ripple effect will occur in the region?
The problem with ousting a dictator is that the people of that nation have been fed on propaganda. In Arab states, this translates into a hatred of all things American. But you must also remember that we do have an excellent record of establishing stable, peaceful, and productive democracies - after we win the wars. If instead we simply keep our troops in there to be shot at indefinitely, we have failed - consistently. I am not worried about how the new government of Iraq will do because I am confident that we can win such a war.
As for the other nations in the region, once Iraq is defeated, I believe that they will quickly become compliant with our idea of peace. If they take advantage of the opportunity to launch military strikes, they will have to answer to us and our allies, which at that point are already in the region and have already proven effective against Saddam. When we do decide to use force, the stability of the region depends on a decisive victory.
This morning, in addressing the U.N., Bush did not speak to these things. Ah well, it is a new world with many dangerous places and lots of mistakes out there waiting to be made.
I dislike pointing this out, and I am not attempting to blame the Democratic party itself for this, but the presidents who have instituted the most horrible military failures in American history are liberal Democrats. The Bush Administration is well aware of the problems that led to Vietnam, and they have no intention of repeating the mistakes. We do not take the use of force lightly, but when the military is called upon its purpose is to fight and win wars. To take territory. To fight back at those who attack them. To eliminate their opponents ability to retaliate.
But, I admit, one of those potential mistakes could be not doing anything. Nobody knows for sure.
If Saddam and other terrorist states are attempting to acquire weapons of mass destruction, then not acting would be catastrophic. I am not saying that we must rush into a decision or that this always means war, but we cannot rely on meaningless UN resolutions to prevent these people from acquiring such weapons. The UN has had ten years to enforce its resolutions, and they have done nothing. People speak of containing Saddam and keeping him in a box - what box? What is containment if he can freely violate the rules, leaving us without any way to monitor his supposed commitment to peace?
And how, exactly, are we supposed to force Saddam to comply with these resolutions without the use of force?
As this wild discussion winds down, the power of feeling regarding the USA and other issues has really had a deep affect on me. In that sense, I'm glad there was this discussion. OSNews posters never hold back <g>. It has forced me to examine and take into consideration the viewpoints of others. Thank you!
Hmm...I found out much about anti-American sentiment as well. What do you think of the US state department creating an online forum where these matters can be discussed without descending into personal attacks?
By demonizing another group of people, the peckers they have for leaders in the Middle East are able to rally support for themselves from everyone under them. This makes them rich and powerful.
...and it also gives them a way to explain why their people remain poor and ignorant.
The record is 281 comments.
Mozilla is more important than the war on terror?! j/k :0
Zealot:
You can be sure that if helping in some way at it's competitors benefit Microsoft, it will.
US does that contribution because acomplish with determinates benefits. Also do that when politicaly carrie some advantage. Many of this is only to shut up.
Hey buddy, don't be angry with me. Don't missunderstand we aren't here to fight. It's only than nobody will talk bad about theire own home. And I understand you. The fact is the attitude. You live good, have food, study, opportunities and a future. In other parts around the world the live is hardest, and your country doesn't do more easy. You live good, and you have to give thanks to your nation, but isn't the case with all us here out of your country.
But better than donate USA could truly help if they don't truncate our activities, not interfering when they aren't welcome. As you may know the CIA is present at all the world constantly evaluating what things are bad for USA. It violate the liberty sobereignty of any country intervened. Some unclassified documents shows how the CIA dirty act in other countries.
¿How you feel now about having extranges at home?
¿Do you understand why is ugly have extranges trying to change your country?
¿Do you feel now our pain when you invade our home?
We live that everyday. The diference is that you aren't custom. You're also an invader, my little country can't defend itself. ¿Do you thing whe will invade you?
But you can't undertand me, you don't live here, or better: "You don't live out there". If you had born outside may be you understand what and why all other people outside USA in this forum has a diferent point of view than you.
I don't agree the agression of 9/11, It's incorrect in any point of view, only desire that you understand now how you make us feel fear
...and it also gives them a way to explain why their people remain poor and ignorant.
That is very true.
null, I should not have said you cannot imagine a peaceful world. That was foolish of me - how do I know what you can imagine? <g>
No matter what I think, there does seem to be war in the air.
I thought the message limit was 250 - I think that's where the Greece thread stopped and I thought that was it. :::sigh::: I wish we had a world where the most urgent matters were discussing Mac processors, Microsoft, Linux and OBOS...time to go look at SuSE 8.1 :-)
I took the limit out about 3 days ago, after some people emailed that they wanted it out. We had put the limit about a month ago, because we are already at 37,000+ entries in the db, and when I log in to the backend it is slow as hell to do some queries.
You never question the solutions. If you really question the solutions you will have to question the ones who have offered you those solutions. But sentimentality stands in the way of your rejecting not only the solutions, but those who have offered you the solutions. Questioning that requires a tremendous courage on your part. You can have the courage to climb the mountain, swim the lakes, go on a raft to the other side of the Atlantic or Pacific. That any fool can do, but the courage to be on your own, to stand on your two solid feet, is something which cannot be given by somebody. You cannot free yourself of that burden by trying to develop that courage. If you are freed from the entire burden of the entire past of mankind, then what is left there is the courage. -- U.G.
There is a reason that adult minds are not often freed. They are too steeped in fear, unable to escape their conditioning, their programming.
It is easy to posture and be "pro-American"/"pro-Israeli" or "anti-American"/"pro-Palestinian". These postures/programs/platforms are given to you; there is no individual effort required.
But do we have facts that we are working with? Or just more illusion from the machines? What are the principles we are working with? Do they include the right of all people to self-determination? What are the limits to how we use force others to our own viewpoints? Do we limit ourselves to peaceful means or do we unleash the engines of nuclear war? Do we abide by any rules of engagement or is simply "might makes right" ?
I put the red pill on the table. If you take it, that means you want to know more. To discover where the rabbit hole goes. It certainly doesn't end in the simplicities of one the major idealogical platforms. Taking the red pill means finding the courage to create your own beliefs based on what is real, not what you are programmed for.
Free your mind.
--
"We should look forward to a time, and that not a distant one, when corruption in this as in the country from which we derive our origin will have seized the heads of government and be spread by them through the body of the people; when they will purchase the voices of the people and make them pay the price. Human nature is the same on every side of the Atlantic and will be alike influenced by the same causes.
When corruption.. has prevailed in those offices of government and has so familiarized itself as that men otherwise honest could look on it without horror, then we must be alive to the suppression of this odious practice and bring to punishment and brand with eternal disgrace every man guilty of it, whatever be his station."
--Thomas Jefferson, founding father of America
I am very grateful to all the people that helped in the Sept. 11 crisis. With that said, how are we supposed to move on with our lives if everytime we turn around it is constantly thrown in our faces? I know that is not over, but how am I supposed to ge over losing someone when everytime I turn on the television they are showing pictures of it? How are we supposed to stop attacks over here when we broadcast everything we do? We already know that there are contact people over here working for the other side. Why show them or weakest links or areas, because that is what we do everytime we come on T.V broadcasting about how we are planning on stopping there attacks when they come?
I am writing this not to put down the US.I feel that it's a honor to be in this country and I am damn proud, too. But shouldn't we let some of this be just between the big people and they inform us of the happenings while its happening or after, because it's not like we have to much imput as it is?
Its apparent how limited you are.
>>The terrorists represent the last front of a deeply fundamental conservative religion that is being threatened by westernized values. They are the last hold out of a way of life that is far from modern.
You're quite dim aren't you ... terrorist represents a deeply fundamental conservative releigion? and what releigion would this be, as you say at the end, Islamic terrorism? What sort of half wit blinded remark is that? Let me educate you: not all terrorist are islam, not all muslims are fundamentalist, neither are they conservative. There are modernized Islamic nations out there. Islam is around the world, not just the middle east.
>>They loathe our culture and everything about us.
No, they just loathe you.
>>The muslim world, which has never gone through a reform or modernization,
And that's exactly why, idiotic remarks like that. You are a shame for whatever you stand for.
>>is now surrounded by liberalized western values and society. Some members of this world have taken to fundamentalism to fight off that change and westernization.
Be aware that people who terrorize are no longer considered Muslim. Thus cannot be labeled "Islamic terrorist". Just because CNN says so, doesnt mean it's true. Hitler attacked Russia in the beginning under the name of Christianity. Let's call him the Christian Warmonger.
>>They won't go away regardless of our policy. What they hate is far deeper than just our policy it is the fabric of our society, our culture, and values and its influence.
Stop saying 'our'. They just hate your ignorant guts.
>>Change your policy for better and they'll find another reason to hate you. The US is on the top of the hate list but Europe is probably number 2 with Russia at number 3. Europe is not immune to this so be careful what you say. You will be on the receiving end of islamic terrorism. It is just a matter of time.
Oh there's that islamic terrorist. Beware of my generalizations. Them islamic terrorist are gonna get you too, no matter what you do or don't do. Ignorant prick.
sorry i posted the above, fogot my name. Just so you know.
It is easy to posture and be "pro-American"/"pro-Israeli" or "anti-American"/"pro-Palestinian"
************************************************************
Nice spin Rabbi Pigstein, but "Pro-Israel" doesn't equal "Pro-American", neither does "pro-palestinian" equal "Anti-American". Go vote for Liebermann or go agitate some Blacks against Whites or something.
And to HELL with the Islamists, the only race on the face of the entire EARTH that ever managed to make themselves a bigger PAIN IN THE ASS to the rest of humanity than your own.
And SCREW YOU TOO Johan
" Hitler attacked Russia in the beginning under the name of Christianity. Let's call him the Christian Warmonger."
No, let's call you another SHIT-FOR-BRAINS semite race-baiter.
And a SECOND CURSE against Islamists for leaving the People of the Book on their own against the parasitic race. It's a real shame your religion places such importance on your works, because you're going to be judged by them. You're so fond of saying that our Bible has been altered by the jews, but remember that you will have no such excuse for the way you perverted the intent of your own scriptures on 911.
H. Franco Mussolini :
oh i'm semite now arent I ... sheesh. Ignorance.
For christian who read my post, i dont mean to offend, i only say it to underline that by practicing a releigion doesnt mean you advocate things done by evil people under the twisted guise of your beleif.
our perverted intent on our scriptures? Show me these scriptures you talk about.
there's so much genrealizations with your post, i wont even bother to reply.
Wake up to the real world, Agent Mussolini. Wake up to the overpowering greed that rules America. Listen to what our neighbor, Canada, thinks of us:
The perceived greed of the Western world, including the United States, is one of the underlying causes of the horrific terrorist attacks of a year ago, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien says.
Wake up to the vast disparity on how supportive the Bush administration has been in supporting the Palestinians vs. the Israelis.
Wake up to the support the US gave Israel for their vast offensive against the Palestinians -- against every international law, UN resolution and humanitarian decree -- including the massacres at Jenin.
From the point of view of the "leadership" of the US, it is certainly "un-American" to be pro-Palestinian.
Wake up to the flawed, unbalanced foreign policy that is creating fertile ground for acts of further terrorism against Americans and Israelis.
Wake up to the stumbling economy and the deep recession American is on the brink of.
Wake up to the shards and scraps that are all that is left of the Bill of Rights.
Wake up to Bush II, the most power hungry bloodthirsty President the US has ever had.
Wake up to the fact the the Vice President of the United States is in contempt of court and has not turned over documents showing his collusion with Enron.
Wake up to having a rational discussion, about reality, not just lapsing into a dysfunctional emotive tantrum.
Wake up to being able to talk about something without attacking other people, other ideas, other minds. Wake up to what America is really about.
And wake up to the most important thing of all.
There is no spin.
Free your mind.
UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992
1. Resolution 106: "... 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation""
13. Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'
31. Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians"
39. Resolution 471: "... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "... 'reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'"
41. Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
42. Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
55. Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.
Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.
From Findley's Deliberate Deceptions, 1998 pages 192 - 194.
The following are the resolutions vetoed by the United States during the period of September, 1972, to May, 1990 to protect Israel from council criticism:
1. ....condemned Israel's attack against Southern against southern Lebanon and Syria..."
2. ....affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections..."
3. ...condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians..."
4. ....called for self-determination of Palestinian people..."
5. ....deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most world nations and the United Nations..."
6. ....affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people..."
7. ....endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people..."
8. ....demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights..."
9. ....condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations..."
10. ....condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem..."
11. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon..."
12. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not
13. .withdraw from its invasion of Beirut..."
14. ....urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon..."
15. ....condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace..."
16. ....deplores Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal..."
17. ....condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression...."
18. ....denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the occupied territories..."
19. ....deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon..."
20. ....deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites..."
21. ....condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane..."
22. ....deplored Israel's attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon..."
23. ....called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations..."
24. ....urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices..."
25. ....condemned Israel's... incursion into Lebanon..."
26. ....deplored Israel's... commando raids on Lebanon..."
27. ....deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians..."
28. ....deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians..."
29. ....demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian intifada..."
30. ...called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands..."
Welcome to the desert of the real.
Without facts, without looking at the real world, endless platform debates will improve nothing. If our goal is a peaceful world where people can live happy lives, let us see who and what we are working with.
Ignorance is not a solid foundation for good decision making. Rather than throw insults at people, ask yourself "do I have the facts?"
If you don't have the facts, go and learn. Without judging the information.
Trinity: I know why you're here, Neo. I know what you've been doing... why you hardly sleep, why you live alone, and why night after night, you sit by your computer. You're looking for him. I know because I was once looking for the same thing. And when he found me, he told me I wasn't really looking for him. I was looking for an answer. It's the question, Neo. It's the question that drives us. It's the question that brought you here. You know the question, just as I did.
Neo: What is the Matrix?
Trinity: The answer is out there, Neo, and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
From the Washington Post
UNSCR 678 - November 29, 1990
Iraq must comply fully with UNSCR 660 (regarding Iraq's illegal invasion of Kuwait) "and all subsequent relevant resolutions."
Authorizes UN Member States "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area." UNSCR 686 - March 2, 1991
Iraq must release prisoners detained during the Gulf War.
Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.
Iraq must accept liability under international law for damages from its illegal invasion of Kuwait. UNSCR 687 - April 3, 1991
Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all "chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities."
Iraq must "unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material" or any research, development or manufacturing facilities.
Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all "ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 KM and related major parts and repair and production facilities."
Iraq must not "use, develop, construct or acquire" any weapons of mass destruction.
Iraq must reaffirm its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Creates the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) to verify the elimination of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programs and mandated that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) verify elimination of Iraq's nuclear weapons program.
Iraq must declare fully its weapons of mass destruction programs.
Iraq must not commit or support terrorism, or allow terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq.
Iraq must cooperate in accounting for the missing and dead Kuwaitis and others.
Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War. UNSCR 688 - April 5, 1991
"Condemns" repression of Iraqi civilian population, "the consequences of which threaten international peace and security."
Iraq must immediately end repression of its civilian population.
Iraq must allow immediate access to international humanitarian organizations to those in need of assistance.
UNSCR 707 - August 15, 1991
"Condemns" Iraq's "serious violation" of UNSCR 687.
"Further condemns" Iraq's noncompliance with IAEA and its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Iraq must halt nuclear activities of all kinds until the Security Council deems Iraq in full compliance.
Iraq must make a full, final and complete disclosure of all aspects of its weapons of mass destruction and missile programs.
Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
Iraq must cease attempts to conceal or move weapons of mass destruction, and related materials and facilities.
Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors to conduct inspection flights throughout Iraq.
Iraq must provide transportation, medical and logistical support for UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 715 - October 11, 1991
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 949 - October 15, 1994
"Condemns" Iraq's recent military deployments toward Kuwait.
Iraq must not utilize its military or other forces in a hostile manner to threaten its neighbors or UN operations in Iraq.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors.
Iraq must not enhance its military capability in southern Iraq.
UNSCR 1051 - March 27, 1996
Iraq must report shipments of dual-use items related to weapons of mass destruction to the UN and IAEA.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1060 - June 12, 1996
"Deplores" Iraq's refusal to allow access to UN inspectors and Iraq's "clear violations" of previous UN resolutions.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1115 - June 21, 1997
"Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "clear and flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1134 - October 23, 1997
"Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1137 - November 12, 1997
"Condemns the continued violations by Iraq" of previous UN resolutions, including its "implicit threat to the safety of" aircraft operated by UN inspectors and its tampering with UN inspector monitoring equipment.
Reaffirms Iraq's responsibility to ensure the safety of UN inspectors.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1154 - March 2, 1998
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access, and notes that any violation would have the "severest consequences for Iraq."
UNSCR 1194 - September 9, 1998
"Condemns the decision by Iraq of 5 August 1998 to suspend cooperation with" UN and IAEA inspectors, which constitutes "a totally unacceptable contravention" of its obligations under UNSCR 687, 707, 715, 1060, 1115, and 1154.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors, and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1205 - November 5, 1998
"Condemns the decision by Iraq of 31 October 1998 to cease cooperation" with UN inspectors as "a flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687 and other resolutions.
Iraq must provide "immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation" with UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 1284 - December 17, 1999
Created the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspections Commission (UNMOVIC) to replace previous weapon inspection team (UNSCOM).
Iraq must allow UNMOVIC "immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access" to Iraqi officials and facilities.
Iraq must fulfill its commitment to return Gulf War prisoners.
Calls on Iraq to distribute humanitarian goods and medical supplies to its people and address the needs of vulnerable Iraqis without discrimination.
Additional UN Security Council Statements
In addition to the legally binding UNSCRs, the UN Security Council has also issued at least 30 statements from the President of the UN Security Council regarding Saddam Hussein's continued violations of UNSCRs.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?
"We certainly cannot deny to other nations that principle whereon our government is founded, that every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will; and externally to transact business with other nations through whatever organ it chooses, whether that be a King, Convention, Assembly, Committee, President, or whatever it be. The only thing essential is, the will of the nation."
"The presumption of dictating to an independent nation the form of its government is so arrogant, so atrocious, that indignation as well as moral sentiment enlists all our partialities and prayers in favor of one and our equal execrations against the other. I do not know, indeed, whether all nations do not owe to one another a bold and open declaration of their sympathies with the one party and their detestation of the conduct of the other. But farther than this we are not bound to go; and, indeed, for the sake of the world, we ought not to increase the jealousies or draw on ourselves the power of a formidable confederacy."
-- Thomas Jefferson, founding father of America
So why are we here, in the middle of not just one country's affairs, but the entire middle east?
Is is the oil?
Is it ethnic hatred?
Is it a military industrial complex out of control?
It is the question that drives us.
Before more Americans die, I hope we find an answer that the founding father of America would agree with.
Oracle: You're going to have to make a choice. In the one hand you'll have Morpheus' life and in the other hand you'll have your own. One of you is going to die. Which one will be up to you. I'm sorry, kiddo, I really am. You have a good soul, and I hate giving good people bad news. Oh, don't worry about it. As soon as you step outside that door, you'll start feeling better. You'll remember you don't believe in any of this fate crap. You're in control of your own life, remember? Here, take a cookie. I promise, by the time you're done eating it, you'll feel right as rain.
Hey everyone how did this move to Isreal????? I personaly don't care one way or another I just wanted to make the ameican haters shut the hell up if you want to hate Isreal go right ahead
Reading the many posts by pro-americans, it becomes clear that they essentially "do not get it", for want of a better phrase.
The only way they will "get it" is when they suffer what they have done to the rest of the world. And suffer the insulting commentary that they have given in response to reasoned arguments and appeals for re-evaluation.
I fear that it will come to that, and solely due to the fact that the americans cannot avert the inevitable clash simply because they "don't get it"... they donm't see "what is there to change?".
For the sake of global diversity and universal dynamism, i sincerely hope the american empire crumble.
It would be the worst trahedy to befall mankind if the earth became a stagnant uniform feeding ground for the us miltary/corporate parasite... a world of "globalisation"... a world of "liberal imperialism"... a world where everyone wears a cap or a suit... a world where teh only place to find a kimono or a fez is in museums... a world where the only permitted way to think is along the lines of american democracy.
You people sure pretend to alot of wisdom for a race that still eats cous-cous and goat's eyes with their fingers. We "get it" Allende. We get that every other nation in the world hates America, so Bush is correct after all to proceed without the support of the mud-races that pray to pagan gods for our destruction. For all your pretense about hating jews, you never pull this crap during a jew administration, you waited 10 years for another Bush. Bush expressed his intention of recognizing Palestine without regard to his popularity ratings, but you wouldn't have it because you're a bunch of camel-humping snivellers that love only murder. Quit flapping your camel-butt faces and make your next move so Bush will be justified in exterminating you. After that, when we want the U.N.'s opinion WE'LL TELL IT TO THEM.
And Morpeus, quit posting your megabytes of gay prose, you're not impressing anyone. The more you demonstrate your correct grasp of right and wrong, the more you condemn yourself for approving of 911.
For the sake of global diversity and universal dynamism, i sincerely hope the american empire crumble.
It would be the worst trahedy to befall mankind if the earth became a stagnant uniform feeding ground for the us miltary/corporate parasite... a world of "globalisation"... a world of "liberal imperialism"... a world where everyone wears a cap or a suit... a world where teh only place to find a kimono or a fez is in museums... a world where the only permitted way to think is along the lines of american democracy.
First of all, America is the epitome of diversity. It is the great melting pot of cultures. Americans don't feel that there needs to be "uniform American values" throughout the world to have peace. In fact there is no such thing. The great part of America is the peaceful coexistence of all types of value systems without constant civil war and civil violence.
In the end, a few hundred years from now probably, the entire world will be under democratic rule of some sort or another. Not American democratic rule, but democratic rule. The concept of a representative government predates the foundation of the United States by a few thousand years remember. The representative government is the high point of civic evolution. Unfortunately not every society in the world is ready for it.
As a human I would like to see the entire world scene emulate the core of American civic values without exchanging their cultural heritage for that. By this I mean I would like to see every country with a stable representative government. I would like to see the basic rights enacted in the United States constitution and bill of rights in place in every country. I would also like to raise the standard of living of the poor in all countries to the level of the west, and bring large populations into the middle class of those countries as well.
All of these things can be accomplished without destroying the underlying culture of the region. I'm sure there are plenty of people in the US, mostly our religious fundamentalists and far right wing politicians, who would like to replace the culture of those areas with "proper" Christian culture. This is not the overall drive I'm thinking of however, nor is it the drive of most people investing time and financial resources into these areas of the world.
If the economy, civil rights and governments of all regions of the world emulated Europe and the United States we wouldn't be having the situation that exists in Israel or many of the nations in Africa. We wouldn't have tens of thousands of people die every year during weather disasters. We also wouldn't have the problems of rapid famine throughout the world.
Since this can all be accomplished without the destruction of the underlying culture, and the majority of the people involved in working towards this goal are not of the ilk to try and force a westernization of the culture and religion of the region, I fail to see why the engine for this transformation should be so despised.
H. Franco Mussolini, the level of intellect and blind hate displayed in your post indicates the kind of people the rest of the world is up against.
for your information, i am not "camel humping", i do eat with my fingers, and i am a fair haired, blue-eyed, pale skinned person - your post suggests otherwise.
does it distress you that i am white and western and can see reasons for the US to fall?
It would be the worst tragedy to befall mankind if the earth became a stagnant uniform feeding ground for the us miltary/corporate parasite... a world of "globalisation"... a world of "liberal imperialism"... a world where everyone wears a cap or a suit... a world where teh only place to find a kimono or a fez is in museums... a world where the only permitted way to think is along the lines of american democracy."
Have you been reading al qaida handbooks or something. thanks for showing us that its not just americans that can be irrational.
hank - thank you for a more calmer post.
what do you make of this american chap's synopsis of the starte of the american people:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,12361,78998...
reading this would have you beleive that the US is not an example of any peak if civilisation.
you say you would liek to see representative govt everywhere... then why didthe US overthrow the ELECTED Allende in a bloody coup? why does the US spnsor unrepresentative puppets worldwide? why does it supply resources to minority terror groups? iran-contra?
as the English Guardian explained: the US people are kept away from such realities to make their lives more comfortable. and to make them more pliable.
i think it would be enlightening for both of us (at least) if you truied to reason why the US sposored the overthrow of Allende in Chile 1973, and more recently tried to overthrow Hugo Chavez who represents his people?
Even Arafat was elected! ... you can you say the same for your George W Bush... right now in Florida we are seeing a replay of the electoral irregularities regarding Janet Reno...
come on Hank... you don't seriously belive your own hype? do you?
i would put it to you that the US, never havinh had a long and ancient history, is still in the infantile cultural stage. and that is why they can;t see it when they pollute and destroy other peoples ancient cultures.
no, ryan, i read the broadest possible sources of news that i possible can, from the ny times, to the al-hayat, from the uk guardian to the spanish el pais. from the us Time, to the french figaro.
do you? i would be dissappointed if you were only fed on a diet of cnn and fox?
the US had no problem with UB Laden Esq. against the soviets?
the US had no problem with Mssr S. Hussein in 1979 when they broought him to power?
they had no problem with our chap Manuel Noriega, either?
Now do you see? Your ideas of the US;s morality are false. Its what they want you to believe.
Look at this: the Bush oil clan were dealing with the Taliban? Its even publsihed in the US papers!
Look at thus: george bush's granddad helped finance the Nazi regime in germany. under the Trading With the Enemy Act, Roosevelt was forced to take their shares.
could it not be clearer?
>>Have you been reading al qaida handbooks or something.
>>thanks for showing us that its not just americans that
>>can be irrational.
Yes i do read a number of sources worldwide. I particularly like russian news sites because they always say the opposite of US sites but that is not the point. Irrational is irrational. Reading can but does not necessarily stop irrational behavior or thoughts.
Mark my words
The world is steadily changing. Intellectual thought has, for the last 50 years, been hijacked by the extreme left (and a few religious extremists in the middle east) Just like the right before them, they rewrote history and interpreted events to their needs. They are just as bad as the right.
However, extremes come and go. Europe, from which i strongly doubt you are from, is now pushing to its next extreme the right. It will be as bad as the left before it.
Take this into consideration the same laborers whose support put the left in power in Europe are decidely swinging to the right these days. They are anti-immigration, anti-jewish, anti-muslim, and incredibly nationalistic.
My guess is that the US will have to step in and moderate Europe's extreme right again. My guess is that the US will need to defend the rights of the many Muslims and the few remaining jewish in Europe again.
By the way, most of you just think you are angry at the US. What you are really angry at is your own lack of power, the europeans in particular. So very many of Europes policies (like the war tribunal nonsense) are really designed to curb US influence or to strengthen Europe. Don't blame us for feeling powerless. It is not our fault. It is your own.
US policy has screwed people all of the world. Take note that the only terrorists that are trying to poison our water supply are muslim fundamentalists. They are not angry panamanians or nicaraguans or even chileans. And please take note that cuba, russia, china, packistan, india, sudan, somalia, serbia, have killed plenty more people than the US, some individually. Please also note that a lot more muslims have been killed by muslim nations and india in the last 20 years then by the US or israel in 200 years.
Or to rephrase one of my other posts, the root of this current terrorism runs a lot deeper than simple policy. I don't subscribe to the apologist "you deserved 9/11" line. Yes their are bad policies that need to be changed. No changing them won't make people who call us infidels and call for a holy war go away. The root of that evil has to do with something far more complex and fundamental. Some of it is feeling powerless. Some of it is simply resistance to change and hatred for the spread of western values, which don't necessarily need to destroy other cultures. As i said before, you can track that fundamentalist movement well before most of the US's sins. Bad US policy makes it easier for the fundamentalists to recruit yes but changing the policy won't make this problem go away.
When I was putting forth my idealistic, perhaps even utopian, view, I was not stating that with any relevance to current US foreign policy. I don't like the fact that the U.S. has supported the regimes in question for political expediancy. This is not the way that my future vision would be achieved, and as you pointed out it is an unfortunate part of US foreign policy of the last half of the 20th century.
The fact that this is hidden from the common American is not due to some conspiracy however. If it was a conspiracy, then they've done a very poor job covering their tracks. The fact that these things aren't brought up in the media or during election is pure market economics. No one wants to hear about that, so those who are selling their air time or themselves (politicians), won't touch it with a ten foot pole. It's not snazzy and "cool" enough for prime time. Unfortunatetly most people don't read much further than the front page of their newspaper or the ten minute daily news brief on TV, so they aren't even aware of the existence of these events.
I would like to carry on this conversation after this drops off the osnews front page. My legitimate e-mail address is above ( hgrabows@hotmail.com). If you could please put OSNEWS or something in the subject header so I know it isn't spam. I would be happy to continue a rational and intellectual conversation on this topic with anyone on the board.
Thanks and take care,
Hank
I don't think these anti-americans will ever learn will they? hank that's a mistake you know a rational and intellectual coversation with these people is impossible. I'm also starting to just hate them back and say fuck'em, because when I tryed talking all they did is spout more shit
oh and all you stupid dumb fucks I'm thinking about becoming a jew what do you think about that???
Even Arafat was elected! ... you can you say the same for your George W Bush...
Yes. Dork.
...right now in Florida we are seeing a replay of the electoral irregularities regarding Janet Reno...
Why? Because she lost since nobody likes her because she's a beer wench with a law degree? If that is indeed what you are saying, it seems to me you cry foul play whenever someone you don't like wins. That's a crying shame. It really is. No, really.
I am glad that this topic was a record breaker. It was fun to participate. Now that the thread is dead, I can go home.
"Yet still there are double standards at work here. George Bush can rightly condemn the killing of Israeli university students as making him "mad", but blithely brush off the slaughter of Palestinian children by a bomb dropped from a US-made Israeli plane as "heavy handed". Yet it's not just the pitiful remarks of President Bush, but the double standards of whole peoples. Here's what I mean. Today, 11 September, our newspapers and our television screens are filled with the baleful images of those two towers and their biblical descent. We will remember and honour the thousands who died. But in just five days' time, Palestinians will remember their September massacre of 1982. Will a single candle be lit for them in the West? Will there be a single memorial service? Will a single American newspaper dare to recall this atrocity? Will a single British newspaper commemorate the 20th anniversary of these mass killings of 1,700 innocents? Do I even need to give the answer?"
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=332182
"However, extremes come and go. Europe, from which i strongly doubt you are from, is now pushing to its next extreme the right."
Well, his ISP is inty.net, which is based in the UK, as far as I can tell. Whats the matter? Can't you believe that so called 'civilased' people from a 'democracy' who do not suffer from 'technology and freedom envy' would hate American foreign policy so much?
America really needs to 'take its head out of the sand'.
Here is an example. It has been reported that at the World Racism Conference in Durban South Africa roughly two years ago, all the representatives of all the countries present voted in favour of passing a motion that 'Zionism is racism'. Only Israel and America opposed it.
Let's not forget about Kyoto. And about the World Court.
Most of this thread seems to be about nationalism--what governments do-- and broad statements about what religions are about: Christianity, Jewish, Muslim.
This nationalistic and religious crap is what really traps us as individuals. Humanity will progress when we empower individuals and give preference to individual rights and freedoms. Only by empowering individuals can we overcome the fear and insignificance that individuals feel, fear that makes people want to belong to something bigger than themselves, like a nation or religion, and leads to ignorance and hatred of people of other nations and religions.
"oh and all you stupid dumb fucks I'm thinking about becoming a jew what do you think about that???"
Snip snip snip, fifty dollar tip ;-)
"Here is an example. It has been reported that at the World Racism Conference in Durban South Africa roughly two years ago, all the representatives of all the countries present voted in favour of passing a motion that 'Zionism is racism'. Only Israel and America opposed it."
8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
You still don't understand, do you? What you said is absolutely true. Maybe even all your references have been. But your "answer" to this problem was to KILL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE UNDER THEIR CONTROL. Could you have taken down Stalin by crashing a plane full of his subjects into a building full of his subjects??? FOOL! Your fate was sealed when you chose your course of action just as surely as the Aryan race's fate was sealed when Hitler attacked fellow White races. Your religion teaches you that Christians are "People of the Book", and that we have been mislead by the jews. Your solution was what? TO KILL US!!! Society can endure even the humblest laborer, but not the mad thinker. Deep down inside I know this whole mess was a jewish trick to get Christians and Muslims to kill each other off, BUT I HAVE NEVER HEARD A SINGLE MUSLIM EXPRESS REMORSE FOR WHAT WAS DONE. So keep patting yourself on the back, telling yourself how wise and pious you are. Your race apparently shares an abberrant thought process in common, an inherited psychological quirk, a genetic tendency to misunderstand and mishandle truth and reality. I look forward to your removal from the Human gene pool. Let Islam be preserved by a race with an appetite for something other than bloodshed.
america's head is not in the sand. Europe's is. America does Europes dirty work and Europe complains. zionism as racism is political nonsense pushed a bunch of arab states who are as anti semitic as it gets. Now that is not to say that israel has done no wrong. they have. but hatred for israel and the PLO support is nothing but a political ploy. palestinians, who i really feel bad for, are just toys to the middle eastern government just like the cold war was to the uS right-wing. hating jews sells in the middle east.
The world can be grateful to Adolf Hitler for one thing: He finally gave
racism a bad name. The
horror and revulsion we Americans felt over the Holocaust helped us
confront our own legacy of
racial discrimination. When our soldiers returned from defeating Hitler,
the "colored only" drinking
fountains were no longer tolerable.
Not only Americans were shocked sober by the Holocaust. The mood of
"never again" produced the
United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and, for that
matter, the state of Israel
itself.
Not that racism has been eradicated_far from it! Racial conflict may be
one of those demons that
permanently haunts the human heart. But at least it is no longer
publicly acceptable among those
regarded as members of civilized society_that broad territory between
David Duke and Louis
Farrakhan.
It is fitting therefore that the United Nations, the offspring of the
world's revulsion against racism, is
conducting a World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination,
Xenophobia and Related
Intolerance in Durban, South Africa, this September. Racial
discrimination plagues societies all
around the globe, and one of the good purposes the U.N. can serve,
despite its flaws, is to discuss
and promote steps to mitigate discrimination.
Predictably, however, this serious conference with a serious objective
is the victim of an attempted
highjacking by elements that have an agenda other than racial equality.
The U.N.'s "problem
children" nations seem to have reached a consensus. They want the Durban
conference to
concentrate on the "evil" of Zionism rather than the evils they engage
in. After all, a real
conference about racism would embarrass an Iraqi regime that has
systematically suppressed its
Kurdish minority or the Sudanese who are waging a genocidal war against
their Nilotic minority. The
enemies of Israel do not come to Durban with clean hands, and that is a
chief reason they want to
turn the Durban conference into a festival of anti-Semitism.
Their mantra is "Zionism is racism," a theme that actually made it into
a U.N. General Assembly
resolution in the 1970s when American prestige was at its nadir.
Zionism, the notion that the Jews
be allowed to have their own country like everyone else, is no more
racism than is the notion that
the Japanese, the Poles, the Irish and the Mexicans ought to have
countries of their own.
But "Zionism is racism" serves the interests of the practitioners of
tantrum diplomacy. For one thing,
jealousy of the United States unites the U.N.'s problem children. But
lacking the strength to hurt
the U.S., they attack our ally, Israel. Moreover, the Arabs who live in
and near Israel make a
plausible "victim group" because they comprise an ethnic minority within
Israel_an ethnic minority
that is more privileged in many ways than those in other countries, but
which nonetheless has
grievances that can be exploited. Most of all, however, accusing the
Jews of racism whitewashes
the Jew-hatred that is the heart and soul of anti-Zionism.
Those who try to hide their anti-Semitism pretend it is not "the Jews"
whom they despise, but only
a political agenda called "Zionism." At a minimum, this is like
suggesting that the Third Partition of
Poland, which wiped Poland out of political existence for more than a
century and divided its
territory among its neighbors, was not anti-Polish. The "anti-Zionism"
ploy is even more dishonest
because the agenda of the "anti-Zionists" is not merely political. They
really do want to wipe the
Jews off the face of the earth, and they make no bones about saying so
in propaganda to their own
citizens.
The "Zionism is racism" drumbeat is identical to the racism that gave
birth to the Holocaust and, in
the attempt to prevent such a horror from ever occurring again, the
United Nations. Indeed, the
very purpose of a U.N. Conference Against Racism should be to end
forever any such notion as
"Zionism is racism."
Your gutter religion's own filthy scriptures state "A gentile 3 years of age may be violated". Several years ago when two Rabbis got arrested for molesting an 11 year old child sitting between them on an airplane, one of god's chosen little pedophiles actually had the temerity to offer in his defense that such behavior was permissible by his religion. You have scriptures saying that the gentile is merely a beast, and that the only reason your god made us in Human form was so the jew would not have to be served by a beast. Your own history in the old testament never shows you contributing anything to the race of Man, just killing him and stealing his gold. So go peddle your sob story to dumb ass Americans that have had their minds warped by jewish teachers. The rest of the world is quite familiar with the way you sit on Humanity's neck like a TICK.
And a further curse on the Islamists, COWARDS that read but won't post, COWARDS that killed unprepared civilians instead of military targets, COWARDS that have forced jew and gentile to be on the same side for the first time in history just to dispose of YOU.
You knew the truth, and followed your own bloodthirsty nature instead.
Please all calm down.
Nothing matters in this world if you ask me. Just have fun, be a good person and love all the people. One day, we all going to die, and all this Magic the Gathering cards, or CDs, or computers we all fanatically collect, they will all be gone. Poof. Nothing. The end. And all these arguments over here... nothing changes anything. So please _everyone_ calm down please.
In response to:
" for your information, i am not "camel humping", i do eat with my fingers, and i am a fair haired, blue-eyed, pale skinned person - your post suggests otherwise. does it distress you that i am white and western and can see reasons for the US to fall?"
Allende ... So your a f...... Neo Nazi! Who gives a rip! The only person it sounds like with any balls in your country is TONY BLAIR!
PRAX, USA
Eugenia - can you say what you said to a child who is taking 3 years to die because of US bombing? Could you really go to his parents and say "calm down" - cvould you really tell a bosnian teenage girl who had her womb cut open by serbian paramilitaries to "chill out". could you?
would you really say that if your own daughter was raped and then brutally murdered in front of you by russian forces?
would you really say "calm down" if you were asked which one of your two sons could survive - the other shot through the head - watched by the rest of your family?
you disappoint me Eugenia.
the only people who can say that are those who are in enough comfort and complacence to say that.
if there is anything to be learn from these posts , it is that the complacent class will only learn when their complacency is rudely interrupted.
Thanks for your help following the days after Sept. 11 2001.
Thanks for everything.
Here's to Lewisporte,Gander, Sackville, Moncton, Halifax, Victoria, Edmonton, and others.
Thanks. It's great to know that we have such wonderful friends in Canada.
-
Looking forward to a glass of Screech.
> you disappoint me Eugenia.
Yeah. Sorry. Shit happens. They happen since Day 1 from the human race put feet on this planet.
I can't change the world you know. I wish I could.
