Linked by Mike Klein on Tue 13th Feb 2007 16:51 UTC
Features, Office This is a response to the first part of the word processor review recently featured on donationcoder.com. I have WordPerfect Office X3, OpenOffice.org 2.1, and MS Office 2003 all installed on my computer, and the article stirred up some of the opinions that have gradually come to settle in the depths of my mind. So here are my thoughts.
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I'm like a third through and already irritatated
by cyclops (1.72) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 17:38 UTC
cyclops
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2006-03-12
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"The bottleneck is Microsoft. FOSS software is happy to interoperate with any other software. Why won't Microsoft? That is the $64,000 question in 2007."

Understatement of the year.

Nice
by twenex (2.56) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 18:25 UTC
twenex
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2006-04-21
Fans: 14

Nice piece. Agree with cyclops too.

Change the title
by fretinator (4.4) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 18:36 UTC
fretinator
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2005-07-06
Fans: 5

I would change the title to a "Personal Lament of the State of 'Office' Computing"

Like many people, it is a sorrowful look at what could have been with Wordperfect. I, too was a WP user (5.1 for Dos). It was such a powerful tool.

Unfortunately, we should all know by now it isn't the quality of the product that leads to survival. This has been played out so many times (the early PC wars won by IBM) in the past. Microsoft's main skill has been marketing, where they have PWNED (sorry!) everyone.

Unfortunately, this battle is not at the user level, but at the OEM level and at the big business level. Microsoft doesn't sell software (primarily) to users, but to companies and OEMs. These decisions are made for us, just like the Wide/Narrow tie, hemlines, etc. Only a true revolution could change that, and perhaps this coulb be the true contribution of FOSS in America if it succeeds - computers OF, BY, and FOR the people.

[shoots off fireworks and waves flags]

RE: I'm like a third through and already irritatat
by flywheel (1.4) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 18:42 UTC
flywheel
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2005-12-28
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#1 You know, it is never Microsft that is incompatible, it is the rest of the world, that is incompatible.

I remember when Microsoft took the Keberos protocol and slightly changed it (AFAIR they started utilizing a reserved comment field). The press soon called Kerberos incompatible with the new Microsoft invention.

I disagree
by ronaldst (1.64) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 19:03 UTC
ronaldst
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2005-06-29
Fans: 4

Wordperfect was bundled on major OEMs for a really long time up until recently. I still have Wordperfect CDs from many Dells. In contrast, MS Office was never bundled freely. Unlike Wordperfect, it was always an extra cost.

What made Office take off was a mix of volume site licensing offered by the MS vendors and Wordperfect for Windows had a clunky interface that didn't conform to the Windows UI style. Only previous Wordperfect for DOS users understood it. It lost flat out like Lotus. Office 97 was a clear winner.

To top it off, at that time, Wordperfect even made weird decisions like dropping Mac version. Which didn't even make any sense at all. Which probably helped ClarisWorks in the end. They even shipped an half-baked version for OS/2. IIRC it was based on 5.1.

RE: I disagree
by systyrant (3.04) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 19:12 UTC in reply to "I disagree"
systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18
Fans: 2

Office 97 was a clear winner because Microsoft literally gave it away to everybody and their brother. I got three free copies when I worked at a computer store just for telling the rep that I knew a couple of people who would like to have it. I knew of at least a few business that basically got it for free just because they used WordPerfect at the time. I say basically free because they had to pay like $5 or $10 for each copy, but at one of them almost all the employees got a free copy.

By the way I do agree with what you said.

Edited 2007-02-13 19:16

RE[2]: I disagree
by TusharG (2) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 20:00 UTC in reply to "RE: I disagree"
TusharG Member since:
2005-07-06
Fans: 0

Yes story is nice but now u r hooked up for MS Office forever... since your all docs are in MSdoc format... they may give Office 97 for free but all the next copies you have purchased... ;) so in the end who is the winner? you or MS?

RE[3]: I disagree
by ronaldst (1.64) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 20:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I disagree"
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29
Fans: 4

But what happened to you are stuck on Wordperfect forever since all your documents are in WP format?

;)

RE[4]: I disagree
by dylansmrjones (2.6) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 20:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I disagree"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02
Fans: 21

You are not. There are several ways to convert WP-files to other formats.

OpenOffice converts WP-formats really well, though not 100% correct. But that goes for pretty much any documentformat-conversion - with exception of those based on open standards.
MS-word is just as bad a choice as is WordPerfect if you want to keep your documents around for decades. No application (incl. MS Word) has perfect conversion of MS-doc formats (incl. the 97 format and the later formats - which btw. are quite different from the 97-format).

The first version of PerfectOffice for Windows was not 6.1, but version 6.0 (which came later in two revisions 6.0a and 6.0b).

The last version (known to me) of WordPerfect+Quattro Pro named PerfectOffice was version 8.

And he also messes up the fileformats - despite the fact he has several good points.

But apart from those misses he's quite right. WP2000 was a major letdown, and v.12 is in my mind much to bloated compared with v.8 - codewise that is - not functionality.

RE[4]: I disagree
by systyrant (3.04) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 20:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I disagree"
systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18
Fans: 2

Open them in OpenOffice and watch all your hard work go to waste. ;)

(I do use OpenOffice, but it's just not capable of formating a document like WordPefect.)

RE[3]: I disagree
by systyrant (3.04) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 20:35 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I disagree"
systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18
Fans: 2

I would say me since I use WordPerfect. ;)

_Serious comment below._

That was the point. Microsoft didn't really have to create the best product in the market they simply had to get the majority to use it. Back in the day I had absolutely no use for any office suite, but I wrote all my documents in Microsoft Office 97. I did it because I had it and at the time nobody really knew any better.

Yes, I admit it, I was part of the problem. Truth be told up until maybe five or so years ago I thought Microsoft could do no wrong. I believed hand over foot that they would lead us to the promise land. Then I got a chance to use Netware and I finally realized how easy things should be. Since then I've been pissing and moaning about Microsoft.

However, that doesn't mean Microsoft doesn't do anything good. From what I've seen and read about Office 2007 the interface, at least, is pretty darn awesome. I'll still use WordPerfect though. I can't live without reveal codes. ;)

RE: I disagree
by fretinator (4.4) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 19:46 UTC in reply to "I disagree"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06
Fans: 5

Wordperfect was bundled long after the war was over. I remember motherboards often came with a copy. Microsoft was already the standard by then.

As mentioned elsewhere, Office used to be an inexpensive add-on to new computers (back when there still was a war). I remember paying an extra $79 to have Office '97 Pro added to my new Gateway laptop. Now that it owns the market, it costs an arm and a leg to add Pro to your purchase.

I'm still a WordPerfect user.
by systyrant (3.04) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 19:06 UTC
systyrant
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2007-01-18
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And I don't plan on changing anytime soon.

WordPerfect has had it's ups and downs and at the moment I think they are having an up. Corel doesn't handle WordPerfect right. They, like many, have given up on it.

A lot WordPerfect does need to be rewritten to support modern features like Unicode. It's not going to happen though. I personally don't care that much as it works great for all that I do and it's still a site better than OpenOffice in most areas.

Personally I would love to see Corel put some effort into making WordPerfect the best damn word processors money can buy, but I would love to see them do that to Quatro and Presentation. If it were up to me I would take all the knowledge gained from working on WordPerfect and start over from scratch recreating the second coming of WordPerfect Office Suite. I would fully support Unicode and ODF. I'd work toward making Quatro better than or at least as good as Excel. I would look to Keynotes as the goal for Presentation. And lastly I would either kill Paradox or turn it into a front end for other database engines like MS SQL Server, Postgre, MySQL, etc.

The other thing I would do is dump WordPerfect mail. It sucks. I would look at creating, licensing, or using a real challenger to Outlook.

I would also make it as platform agnostic as humanly possible. I might even go so far as to open source the whole damn thing. As a matter of fact I probably would.

Then again I'd probably just run the company into the poor house and end up turning WordPerfect into some bastardized child that was buggy and didn't work at all. At least I could say I tried which would be a lot more than Corel can say.

RE: I'm still a WordPerfect user.
by sbergman27 (4.64) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 20:15 UTC in reply to "I'm still a WordPerfect user."
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24
Fans: 33

"""
At least I could say I tried which would be a lot more than Corel can say.
"""

You can't really blame Corel. They have a responsibility to their stockholders, and to the Citizens of The Planet Earth.

And they know that they will be allowed to survive, even flourish, after a fashion, as long as they do not compete too successfully with Redmond.

If it's money one is after, there is a fair amount of space available that lies between making good, and threatening Microsoft.

<cue audio="America The Beautiful.mid">

Microsoft is a Great Company. And it has made so many wonderful things possible.

It is the pinnacle of the American dream. And many a grandmother has pictures of her grandchildren that she would never have had if Microsoft had not invented The Internet.

Microsoft has revolutionized this world. Poor people have fud^Wfood that they would not have had otherwise.

They have fostered a better understanding between the generations, and between the peoples of the various countries of the world.

Can Complete World Peace be far away?

The possibilities are infinite.

But those possibilities will be unrealized if this Great Company is required to waste its resources competing with lesser companies, and is not allowed to focus upon the Innovation which is its forte.

Corel is simply doing their duty. To themselves. To their shareholders. And to *all* of us.

And perhaps, one day, to all who call the Milkyway Galaxy their home.

</cue style="fadeout">

The Vista adventure is just beginning...

Edited 2007-02-13 20:29

RE[2]: I'm still a WordPerfect user.
by systyrant (3.04) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 20:45 UTC in reply to "RE: I'm still a WordPerfect user."
systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18
Fans: 2

Ah Vista. We hardly wanted ya, but you were here to stay. ;)

RE[3]: I'm still a WordPerfect user.
by sbergman27 (4.64) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 21:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'm still a WordPerfect user."
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24
Fans: 33

Indeed. How many products do most people more or less *have* to buy.

If I decreed that everyone had to drive a GM car, brush their teeth with Pepsodent, drink Jolt Cola, and use Preperation H, I wonder how far I'd get.

Edited 2007-02-13 21:02

RE[4]: I'm still a WordPerfect user.
by systyrant (3.04) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 22:19 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'm still a WordPerfect user."
systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18
Fans: 2

You don't *have* to buy Vista or even Windows. Of course it that's the only platform you applications run on it makes it hard not to.

RE[2]: I'm still a WordPerfect user.
by rtfa (2.04) on Wed 14th Feb 2007 14:26 UTC in reply to "RE: I'm still a WordPerfect user."
rtfa Member since:
2006-02-27
Fans: 0

"if Microsoft had not invented The Internet."

I hope you are taking the p*ss

My Memories are Different than the Reviewer's
by Peter Besenbruch (2.68) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 21:59 UTC
Peter Besenbruch
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2006-03-13
Fans: 2

I started on Word Perfect back in its 5.1 days. Prior to that I had used Allwrite on a TRS-80. Word Perfect was as stable as Allwrite, but its text output was inferior, and it was a real memory hog. Why did I need 512K to edit files, when 32K was all anyone needed?

Part of the answer was bloat. Allwrite was written in machine language, while Word Perfect was compiled from C (or some other language). The other reason was capabilities. Word Perfect handled graphics and text together, and did it reliably. That the program did it under DOS was quite an accomplishment.

User interface? Come on! Function key hell is a good description. You either lived inside the program, or you used one of those keyboard templates. Still, I came from Allwrite, so what was I complaining about?

I switched to Windows and installed version 5.2 for Windows. Big mistake. It was basically the DOS version with the thinnest of Windows window dressing. It also tended to crash.

6.0 was a disaster. 6.1 was about as stable as 5.2. I faced stability issues through version 10, service pack three. That version was and is marvelous. I vowed never to upgrade again. Still the damage was done. Word Perfect's stability was so bad for so long that I offloaded my more complex layouts onto Microsoft's Publisher. The Word Perfect phase out had begun.

I moved to Linux around version 11, and found a semi-serviceable Word Perfect import filter. OpenOffice 1.0 had none of Word Perfect 10's speed and grace, but, hey, it worked. OpenOffice 2.0 was a significant improvement, and with 2.0.4 and good KDE integration, I'm pretty happy with it.

My father hung on to Word Perfect Office 9 for ages, but has recently made the switch to OpenOffice. He did a fair amount of basic spreadsheet work with Quattro, and finds it better than OpenOffice Calc. Still, Calc does the job, and OpenOffice does a better job at handling all the Word files his friends send him.

There are a few things I miss. Word Perfect's "reveal codes" function was a Godsend. The ability to position elements on a page was second to none (when it didn't crash). Still, I don't miss the periodic deletion of certain configuration files, the copying of whatever I could rescue from one file and pasting it into a "clean one," things like that. If OpenOffice lacks some of Word Perfect's intuitive grace, in the end, it' a little more powerful. The ability to flow text from one text box to another is a nice addition.

boudewijn Member since:
2006-03-05
Fans: 3

Actually, it's pretty well known that WordPerfect was written in asm. The coders at WP corp even had to write all the little utilities that every programmer needs in asm. Even the very first version of WordPerfect for Windows wasn't written in C (or Pascal or C++) but asm. My wife wrote one of the first books on that version, in WordPerfect 5.2 for dos on one machine while trying to reach the functions she wanted to describe on another machine before WPwin crashed.

I started with Tasword for the ZX Spectrum, then used the Quill for the PC, WordPerfect 3-6, Word 2, Word 6, Abiword and Word 97 (I think). Then we slowly, from 1995 to 1998 moved all our work to Linux where I and my wife used the Linux version of WordPerfect, the motif-based one. My, was I miffed that they didn't include the character-mode version that was available for other Unices! StarWriter 3 followed when WordPerfect just wasn't available anymore. StarOffice 5.0.

And then I was just done. I don't care how much a certain file format was a de-facto world-wide standard (like .doc or .wp or .sxw). I suddenly realized while converting about 50 megabytes of old WordPerfect texts with StarWriter that I couldn't read all my old Quill texts _at all_. I needed a file format of which at least the implementation code was out in the open, and preferable the specification, too.

Because it's not now that's important, but ten years in the future. When _nobody_ will sell any wordprocessor that supports .doc-version-97 anymore. Not even Micrsoft: they are leaving the .doc format right now. Replacing it with something that is basically un-implementable.

Open, complete, impartial standards. That's where your formatted text is safe. OpenDocument is the only one around. You'll, as long as the magnetic particles cling to your disks, be able to read your own documents.

Peter Besenbruch Member since:
2006-03-13
Fans: 2

Actually, it's pretty well known that WordPerfect was written in asm...Even the very first version of WordPerfect for Windows wasn't written in C (or Pascal or C++) but asm.

Thanks for the information.

Then we slowly, from 1995 to 1998 moved all our work to Linux where I and my wife used the Linux version of WordPerfect, the motif-based one.

When I was making the switch, I wanted nothing to do with Word Perfect 8, which would have been something of a regression. It was 10, or nothing. I was under the impression that a Linux version of Word Perfect also relied on Wine. Perhaps you could flesh that out?

I still have old Allwrite files lying around. They have the advantage of being in text format, with formatting codes interspersed. If you can remember what the codes mean, you can reconstruct the document easily enough on any platform. Ah text, the one, true, open format.

HagerR15 Member since:
2005-07-25
Fans: 0

WordPerfect 8 for Linux was native. WordPerfect Office 2000 for Linux was run through a custom implementation of wine.

Office apps....
by aking469 (1.72) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 22:01 UTC
aking469
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2006-01-16
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I too HATE MS word & I HATE excell....I loved Lotus Wordpro and 123. They were so easy...all of my stuff was in their formats.... Those formats are dead now. Thanks IBM. IBM is supposed to the be the big daddy rabbit for Linux, and yet they refuse to open source these programs or update them. I made the jump to OOo and now save most of my text files as.....text files. Anything can open those. I have struggled to learn Calc (Excell), I still don't like it. I hope Apple's new spreadsheet will be so much better.....

Corel have wasted valuable time
by unoengborg (4.72) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 22:14 UTC
unoengborg
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2005-07-06
Fans: 0

by not quickly enough adopt the ODF format. They would be in a much better position to provide support to e.g. government organizations that opt to switch to a standardized format.

Together with OOo they could have broken somewhat of the MS-word network effect. When ODF reached ISO standard, Corel would have had an easier job in selling to government and large customers that usually are the ones the requires following standards.

When/if Microsoft OpenXML format reaches ISO standard status, they could argue that they were used an ISO standard implemented by multiple vendors. This is actually what new legislation tend to require.

Instead they settled for being number two in market share, and at that a questionable number two as market share usually is counted in dollars and not in installed user base. The problem is that future orders will follow installed base.

format-oriented is what matters
by project_2501 (3.04) on Tue 13th Feb 2007 23:47 UTC
project_2501
Member since:
2006-03-20
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i contend that there is still a place for alternative word-processors, spread-sheets, presentation tools and other office software.

what we need is to have standard file formats. this doesn't, incidentlly mean limitations; an intelligent format is extensible sensibly. the word-processors, or other software, then compete to provide the best approach for creating these files. they can compete on spell-checkers, entry-codes vs mouse clicks, plain editting vs pretty user interfaces, whatever.

this has the benefits of open "data-secure" formats, fewer interoperabilit headaches and encouraging competition on the "approach". at the moment, microsoft office doesn't compete - it just sits on its file format.

this has in fact already happened in some areas. different people use different text editors or IDEs to generate the same C or Java format files. people exchange PDFs - some people prefer to export from MS Word, some from OpenOffice, others from Lyx/Latex.

a very good example is the image editting arena - you can use photoshop, paintshop pro, aperture, corel paint, gimp, krita, and many more to target your common set of file formats - jpg, png, tiff, and so on. these applications are compeing much more vigorously than office software.

to summarise - compete on approach/implementation - agree on file formats.

v Plan-B for OpenOffice.org
by conficio (-1) on Wed 14th Feb 2007 04:38 UTC