Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 19th Apr 2008 23:39 UTC, submitted by TheNerd
BeOS & Derivatives Every now and then, the Haiku mailing lists explode with emails about something called the distribution guidelines. The Haiku guys set up a set of guidelines with regards to use of the Haiku trademarks and logos; the "Haiku" name may not be used in the distribution's name, official trademarks and logos must be excluded, but the Haiku icons and artwork may be used. In addition to these cosmetic and trademark issues, the guidelines explain what is needed in order to receive the official "Haiku compatible" logo.
Order by: Score:
Distributions...
by BSDfan on Sun 20th Apr 2008 00:41 UTC
BSDfan
Member since:
2007-03-14

What is with people and "distributions", Linuxism's are spreading everywhere.

Listen folks, Let the "authors" maintain their project.. stop trying to bring Linuxisms into other communities.

Unlike "Linux", BSD, Solaris and Haiku have their own applications.. they're not a kernel that needs bundling with GNU crap.

Down with distributions, they're unnecessary and stupid.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Distributions...
by Gunderwo on Sun 20th Apr 2008 17:17 UTC in reply to "Distributions..."
Gunderwo Member since:
2006-01-03

I'm pretty sure that the BSD's and Solaris both use either Gnome/KDE/XFCE or some other graphical desktop. None of which are written by the BSD or Solaris communities.

So you're assertion that BSD's and Solaris use only software written for them is plain wrong. In this respect they are very similiar to Linux.

I know Haiku does write it's own software stack from the ground up IIRC, but grouping it in with BSD's and Solaris is wrong in this respect.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Distributions...
by BSDfan on Mon 21st Apr 2008 03:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Distributions..."
BSDfan Member since:
2007-03-14

...no they don't, none of them include gnome/kde or even the toolkits (gtk/qt).

They're available in the ports/packages tree, but not distributed.

Only the "distributions", like PCBSD or DesktopBSD include such things, both are distributions - which I made a point of opposing.

Xorg is an "optional" bundle, MIT licenced. ;)

Please do some research in the future.

Edited 2008-04-21 03:33 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Distributions...
by Gunderwo on Mon 21st Apr 2008 04:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Distributions..."
Gunderwo Member since:
2006-01-03


Unlike "Linux", BSD, Solaris and Haiku have their own applications.. they're not a kernel that needs bundling with GNU crap.

Down with distributions, they're unnecessary and stupid.


This comment implies that you see the BSD's as complete software stacks that need not add any additional, non-BSD applications into a "Distribution".


Only the "distributions", like PCBSD or DesktopBSD include such things, both are distributions - which I made a point of opposing.


Yet in your very next quote you reference BSD distributions. So if you are aware of these BSD distributions why would you make a blanket statement about BSD not using distributions.

I'm not lacking any research, what I was saying is that for a BSD to be useful as a Desktop OS or distribution if you may. Is you will likely will end up adding additional non BSD licensed software to make it useful. This is the case whether it is a distribution or a base system added to through ports or packages or whatever.

I should mention also that we are now seeing Solaris based distributions too.

So your initial statement was along the lines of Linux bad, BSD, Solaris, Haiku good. Even though BSD's and Solaris's are packaged as distributions too.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Distributions...
by Gunderwo on Mon 21st Apr 2008 16:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Distributions..."
Gunderwo Member since:
2006-01-03


Xorg is an "optional" bundle, MIT licenced. ;)


Yet Xorg is installable from the FreeBSD installer and referenced in the FreeBSD handbook.

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-c...

You should read the title at the top of the page I linked to. It says "2.7.1 Select the Distribution Set".

I think maybe you should do a little more research.

Reply Score: 1

much ado about nothing
by zabrab on Sun 20th Apr 2008 01:51 UTC
zabrab
Member since:
2007-09-11

oh distro gods
seek exclusivity too
behind veiled walls

Reply Score: 2

Not a huge ordeal, really...
by umccullough on Sun 20th Apr 2008 04:52 UTC
umccullough
Member since:
2006-01-26

I know it probably seems like this may have been another "flamefest" on the Haiku mailing list, but really it was not.

Honestly, I thought this particular discussion went pretty well, and Karl was *very* understanding of the various opinions that were voiced. While this article seems to indicate that Jorge was "harsh" - his words really were re-enforcing what had already been committed to the guidelines. He was trying to uphold the standards that had already been put in place, and was pretty much spot-on.

The guidelines definitely were put in place to help discourage the creation of distros that "dilute" the Haiku brand. Nobody really wants to see Haiku turn into a bunch of 3rd party "me too" releases with minor changes, or a couple extra applications added.

However, I highly doubt the official Haiku release will include all the software necessary to use Haiku as a daily OS. It's extremely likely that you'll have to install extra software in order to get anything done (such as an office productivity suite, or even an IRC client).

In the world of open source, what Karl is doing is fine - assuming he has met the requirements for the guidelines while copyrights and licenses are maintained. Who knows, if for some reason Senryu were to become more popular than Haiku - perhaps that is where the community would thrive.

With Haiku's current state, there's really no reason to even consider this a sign of what's to come. Once Haiku has become stable and approaches something resembling a usable OS, I think the project will basically "solve" some of these issues with official releases. At that point, I figure many of these 3rd party "projects" to disappear.

Reply Score: 10

RE: Not a huge ordeal, really...
by umccullough on Sun 20th Apr 2008 05:48 UTC in reply to "Not a huge ordeal, really..."
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

and Karl was *very* understanding of the various opinions that were voiced.


Responding to myself (yeah, lame, sorry about that):

Reflecting on this, I want to correct what I said. He seems to have been receptive. I'm not entirely sure he's been completely understanding of the opinions ;)

Just had to get that off my chest.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Not a huge ordeal, really...
by Valhalla on Mon 21st Apr 2008 14:24 UTC in reply to "Not a huge ordeal, really..."
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

well, I think the whole thing is sad. I personally enjoy trying out the weekly packs so I'm not exactly objective but for me it was just a great to be able to periodically try out a new build together with installed software with no more effort than a click.

I can't for the world see what negative aspects the existance of this (clearly marked as ALPHA software) image can have had on Haiku, the target audience is exactly the same as those who download the nighlty builds, only it makes it quicker/easier to try out Haiku in conjunction with third party software.

now it's clear from Koki's posts that users like me are not something he wishes to cater for, and that the whole idea of this complaint was to make the weekly pack to simply disappear. however since Karl does cater for users like me, instead of a Haiku image that clearly states with a popup that this is ALPHA software (which really isn't that confusing), he has now gone through the hoops of which the result is a new distro named Senryu (which is less confusing?).

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the existence of Haiku's distro rules, but they have the right to choose when and were to enforce them and doing so in this instance comes across as a simple attempt to shut down a weekly Haiku alpha image with pre-installed software, which in my opinion was counterproductive as I can't see in what way it could possibly have had a negative effect on the Haiku project.

I guess I really better start thinking of Haiku as Haiku Inc from now on, since in this atleast it really comes across as a true corporation rather than a open source project done for fun and passion.

Reply Score: 2

TheNerd Member since:
2007-06-30

well, I think the whole thing is sad. I personally enjoy trying out the weekly packs so I'm not exactly objective but for me it was just a great to be able to periodically try out a new build together with installed software with no more effort than a click.


This is exactly why the Haikuware Weekly Superpack (now Senryu) was started. IMO and OS can't be successful by just allowing developers to test and fix it. Input is needed from early adopters like us who want to contribute but don't have the "programming" skills.

I can't for the world see what negative aspects the existance of this (clearly marked as ALPHA software) image can have had on Haiku, the target audience is exactly the same as those who download the nighlty builds, only it makes it quicker/easier to try out Haiku in conjunction with third party software.


I feel the same way

now it's clear from Koki's posts that users like me are not something he wishes to cater for, and that the whole idea of this complaint was to make the weekly pack to simply disappear. however since Karl does cater for users like me, instead of a Haiku image that clearly states with a popup that this is ALPHA software (which really isn't that confusing), he has now gone through the hoops of which the result is a new distro named Senryu (which is less confusing?).


I get this exact same feeling when I read Koki's posts. It seems like the Haiku Project (represented mostly by Koki) does not want anyone from "outside" to help with anything or try and provide a place for non-developers to gather and test software (i.e. Haikuware). I bet there have been a quite few bugs reported (and probably already fixed) by Senryu users and no one even knows the difference.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the existence of Haiku's distro rules, but they have the right to choose when and were to enforce them and doing so in this instance comes across as a simple attempt to shut down a weekly Haiku alpha image with pre-installed software, which in my opinion was counterproductive as I can't see in what way it could possibly have had a negative effect on the Haiku project.


IMO, the distro guidlines should be as follows: "Haiku is a registered trademark of Haiku, Inc. No usage of the name Haiku or any graphics included therein may be used for anything"

Having the guidelines posted on the Haiku site, to me at least, gives the impression that Haiku, Inc is willing to help the distro creators to implement them. I know now that this is not the case and the only reason for the guidelines is to discourage distribution creation right from the get-go.

I guess I really better start thinking of Haiku as Haiku Inc from now on, since in this at least it really comes across as a true corporation rather than a open source project done for fun and passion.


I'm not saying it is, but I do get the feeling that some people have the mentality that the Haiku code is proprietary or at least want to treat it as such.

Finally, contrary to some people's beliefs, Haikuware's (Karl and I) intentions are truely only to help the Haiku user community use the technology that we all so much enjoy.

Reply Score: 1

koki Member since:
2005-10-17

Having the guidelines posted on the Haiku site, to me at least, gives the impression that Haiku, Inc is willing to help the distro creators to implement them. I know now that this is not the case and the only reason for the guidelines is to discourage distribution creation right from the get-go.


I think you guys have the wrong impression of what Haiku Inc. is. It is not an evil corporation designed to take over or dominate the world (far from it, actually). It is simply a non-profit to support the Haiku project and its goals, that is run, just like most other aspects of the project, by the very same volunteers that do the coding.

The objective of the guidelines is not to encourage third party distros, but rather build and protect the Haiku brand, something that we think is important to the project and the future Haiku users. IOW, the Haiku guidelines were thought out and spelled ourt to further the goals of Haiku, and not to accommodate the desire of third parties.

I get this exact same feeling when I read Koki's posts. It seems like the Haiku Project (represented mostly by Koki) does not want anyone from "outside" to help with anything or try and provide a place for non-developers to gather and test software (i.e. Haikuware). I bet there have been a quite few bugs reported (and probably already fixed) by Senryu users and no one even knows the difference.


FYI, I did not write the distro guidelines. I am trying to enforce them to protect the Haiku brand from the use and abuse of its trademarks and logo, and its image from potentially damaging stuff like the legally questionable inclusion of proprietary software in the superpacks. The only reason that I am the most vocal is probably because I am the marketing guy, and the developers prefer to stay focused on the code (good thing, btw).

There is nothing wrong with devs/hobbyists getting together and testing Haiku software. But you really don't need to create a distro for that. Of course, we can't tell people what to do, but if somebody wants to have their own little distro anyway, that's fine. But then, a different set of rules applies. This is not unique to Haiku either; many projects have rules that regulate the creation of distros, remixes, etc..

I don't want to shutdown the superpacks as some people have been saying here. I am just trying to make you and Karl understand that the moment you choose to work outside of the boundaries of the project with your own goals and agenda like you have done so far, then a certain set of rules apply. Not that we can't be friends or have common goals; but there is also going to be situations where conflict of interest exist. ;)

I'm not saying it is, but I do get the feeling that some people have the mentality that the Haiku code is proprietary or at least want to treat it as such.


You are mixing up apples with oranges. Open source code is one thing, and branding, trademarks etc. are another. Haiku is made of open source code that has a liberal license. But Haiku also has a brand and trademarks that need to be protected from misuse and abuse. Most open source projects have trademark policies that dictate and restrict the use of their trademarks and logos. This is not unique to Haiku as you seem to imply.

Reply Score: 2

umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Finally, contrary to some people's beliefs, Haikuware's (Karl and I) intentions are truely only to help the Haiku user community use the technology that we all so much enjoy.


Let's put this into perspective though - helping the users doesn't necessarily help the developers in all cases.

At the moment, it is the developers that need the most assistance, and while you claim that releasing public haiku-based distributions of an operating system *might* help get more developers and testers, what you don't want to do right now is overwhelm or discourage the existing developers to the point where they pursue other projects that are less intimidating and more fun.

Problem is: dealing with users bitching about quality of software is not fun. It sucks. If those same users are actually helping to improve the quality and actually assisting in other ways, that can be completely the opposite effect. You need to determine what effect you want, and whether you're truly attaining it with your actions, or if you're really making things worse.

I suspect reading comments on public tech news sites about people who simply thing Haiku sucks is extremely obnoxious. Especially if those same individuals have taken no time to actually file a bug, or do not actually take the time to understand why their problem is occurring in a pre-alpha OS. These are the people Haiku doesn't want around *yet*.

Reply Score: 2

tonestone57 Member since:
2005-12-31

Ok people. Everyone take a big breath and calm down.

There is PRE-ALPHA, ALPHA, BETA, RELEASE CANDIDATE (RC) & FINAL. Normally Pre-Alpha & Alpha software is mainly intended for developers/programmers to use and work with and NOT for the general public ( end users ). This is how Haiku Inc. prefers it also. Late Beta builds onwards are for everyone.

Now, speaking for myself, IF the software is *clearly* labeled as Pre-Alpha ( in the About Box & DESKTOP BACKGROUND IMAGE ) then I see no issue with Karl's release and with end users trying it out ( because they'd know what they're using ). After all, it is open source software and he is allowed to make his own distro of HAIKU.

Also, the issue of trademark is important. Haiku Inc. intends to release Haiku OS themselves. Karl can't have a version with included applications called HAIKU and Haiku Inc. come out with HAIKU that basically has the OS - It'd confuse users why there are two different versions of HAIKU. Since Karl made changes to HAIKU ( by adding programs ), then he was essentially creating a distro of it ( different from the original ). Any change(s) constitutes a new distro because it is not the same to the original HAIKU.

In addition, NOT using the HAIKU name is proper because Haiku Inc. intends to release the "Official" HAIKU OS 1.0 when it is ready. And, who wants a bunch of distros showing up with HAIKU in their name??? ie: HAIKU MAX, SUPER HAIKU, HAIKU EXTREME, SUPER DUPER HAIKU, etc. Only HAIKU Inc. should use HAIKU name for their release - trademark also says that HAIKU name belongs to HAIKU Inc.

I'm actually glad to see Karl make his distro and I'm sure others enjoy using it. So long as it's clearly labeled as Pre-Alpha then I won't have any issues with his distro and believe it may be a good thing for getting HAIKU out there - maybe too early, but still. Some fear that Karl's Senryu may be thought by non-Haiku users to be based off the FINAL version of HAIKU and give a BAD impression. That's why making sure that PRE-ALPHA stands out is very important. Haiku Inc should also clearly label "PRE-ALPHA" in HAIKU in the Boot Splash Screen, About Box & Desktop Background Image.

Reply Score: 1

Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

umccullough wrote;
-"Let's put this into perspective though - helping the users doesn't necessarily help the developers in all cases."

of course not, but helping the users doesn't necessary hamper the developers either. and in this case I can't se any negative aspects for the developers. bitching users will always exist, because most of the bitching users don't give a s**t about Haiku and just wants to throw some crap around. look at this thread, BSDFan used Haiku as a proxy in his war against Linux, and do you think primelight's comments are that of someone interested in Haiku at all? in short, bitching users have no correlation with the existance of a weekly image. unless of course you have some data indicating an increase in 'bitching users' after the existance of the weekly pack?

koki wrote:
-"There is nothing wrong with devs/hobbyists getting together and testing Haiku software. But you really don't need to create a distro for that. Of course, we can't tell people what to do, but if somebody wants to have their own little distro anyway, that's fine. But then, a different set of rules applies. This is not unique to Haiku either; many projects have rules that regulate the creation of distros, remixes, etc.."

but the thing is that there wasn't a 'distro', there was a weekly image using a nightly build and preinstalled some third party software that people downloading the nightly builds would have had to install manually otherwise. it clearly stated that it was alpha software and therefore unstable, it was targeted at the exact same people who otherwise download the nightly builds, only making it easier to use. it was you koki, who decided to brand this as a 'distro'. even talking 'distro' at this stage in Haiku's existance seems ridicoulus. and the only reason I can see for you doing so was to make it not worth the effort for Karl to continue offering this weekly pack. I can't see where there were ever any confusion to those who downloaded this pack, now however there might be, atleast until people realize why he had to change it to Senryu.

and should Haiku inc have chosen not to release public nightly builds then yeah, I would have understood the animosity towards this pack, as it would then be obvious that they did not want the public (which currently likely only consists of us Beos/Haiku hardcore fans anyways) to experience Haiku in it's current state. however the builds are being made available to the 'public' by Haiku inc, clearly linked from the start page so obviously Haiku inc wants people to try them out.

Karl's weekly pack only allows me to skip the steps of installing the software I want to try out, nothing more. how this can possibly harm Haiku's brand name is beyond me.

maybe this is some Haiku inc versus Karl thing that I'm unaware of, because I just don't get it. iirc there was no love from Haiku inc back when Karl started the Bounties either. and the Bounties have been great for Haiku. maybe it's about Haiku inc being in total control, but if that is the case then it's the wrong platform (open source) and definately the wrong licence (MIT).

again, I can't see whatever harm could be done due to the existance of a weely image containg a clearly labeled alpha build of Haiku with working software that people download the nightly images would have had to install manually anyways.

not confusing, not counterproductive, just Haiku fans making it easier for Haiku fans.

Reply Score: 2

koki Member since:
2005-10-17

but the thing is that there wasn't a 'distro', there was a weekly image using a nightly build and preinstalled some third party software...


That is exactly the definition of distribution.

and should Haiku inc have chosen not to release public nightly builds then yeah, I would have understood the animosity towards this pack,


There is no animosity. There is a concern that is certainly not unfounded, as can be attested by the fact, for example, that at one point in time the superpacks illegally included proprietary software. Maybe you don't care about this sort of thing, but we do and take them very seriously.

maybe this is some Haiku inc versus Karl thing that I'm unaware of...


I have nothing against Karl, nor is there a Haiku Inc, crusade against him. Personally, I have (publicly) supported Karl back in the days when he was running haikubounties.org, including sending some nasty messages on the Haiku mailing lists in defense of Karl directed to our former project leader.

What's more, I even tried to bring Karl on board in order to develop a bounty system within Haiku (which is what the community wanted), and to that end we exchanged a few ideas via private emails. But one day he vanished and then suddenly sometime later he announced the bounties on Haikuware (that experience taught me that Karl is more interested in doing his own thing than in being a teamplayer).

maybe it's about Haiku inc being in total control...


Well, yes, we want to have a degree of control on how we portray our name and brand. This is not unique to Haiku; that's why most projects have trademark policies that regulate the use of their logo and name and dictate the creation of distros.

We actually also control our code. That it is open source does not mean that anyone can commit anything. All commits are under peer review, and if the developers see something that they consider can jeopardize the quality, integrity or legality of the code base, be sure that the commit will be reverted.

again, I can't see whatever harm could be done due to the existance of a weely image containg a clearly labeled alpha build of Haiku with working software that people download the nightly images would have had to install manually anyways.


Since you have difficulty understanding, I will have to blunt with you; I will try to stay polite though. ;)

First, Haiku does not have any oversight over what's included in the superpacks, as Karl does with the superpacks whatever he wants w/o prior consultation with any of us. We simply don't want to have to respond or be accountable for what somebody else does, particularly when we have no chance to influence the outcome or when any attempt to correct what we see as problems are received as animosity or bad blood against the individual.

Finally, some of the software included in the superpacks actually does not work; some is not even developed nor supported anymore; for some of it, the code is not even available. We don't want people to associate Haiku with such an ugly mashup.

Is that simple enough for you to understand now? ;)

Reply Score: 1

Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

koki wrote:
That is exactly the definition of distribution.

oh I doubt people downloading the weekly pack considered it a distro any more than they consider the nightly builds to be a distro, hence no confusion. had it been called Senryu from the start and had followed the rest of the 'distro' rules set up by Haiku inc then it would certainly have been a distribution, however it was clearly not intended as a 'distro' as it made no attempts to distance itself from Haiku nightly builds other than the inclusion of software. of course if Haiku inc feels someone is dilluting the Haiku brandname they should take action, I just disagree as to this being such a case. what's next, forcing a namechange of Haikuware to Senryuware?


koki wrote:
-"What's more, I even tried to bring Karl on board in order to develop a bounty system within Haiku (which is what the community wanted), and to that end we exchanged a few ideas via private emails. But one day he vanished and then suddenly sometime later he announced the bounties on Haikuware (that experience taught me that Karl is more interested in doing his own thing than in being a teamplayer)."

the Haiku inc way, or you are just not a teamplayer. you really conceal that animosity well. anyway, I get the bigger picture now, though I don't like it much.

conclusively, while I certainly want a lot to do with Haiku the operating system, I don't see myself as wanting to have a whole lot to do with Haiku the administration.

Reply Score: 2

ari-free Member since:
2007-01-22

Firefox has a similar situation with iceweasel.
http://blog.mypapit.net/2006/11/iceweasel-a-completely-free-alterna...
Note the talkback will be based on open source code for firefox 3.
And that 'firefox' port for haiku can't be called "firefox" because it is not an official build.

Let's try not to be overdramatic at the beginning of a project...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Not a huge ordeal, really...
by koki on Mon 21st Apr 2008 16:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Not a huge ordeal, really..."
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

I guess I really better start thinking of Haiku as Haiku Inc from now on, since in this atleast it really comes across as a true corporation rather than a open source project done for fun and passion.


The truth is that Haiku is about the volunteers; without the volunteers, there would be no Haiku, just like any other open source project.

Haiku Inc. is a non-profit that was created to support the Haiku project, but the development-related decisions, including but not limited to distributions, are made by the (volunteer) developers. The distro guidelines are simply a reflection of the decisions made by the very same volunteers that code Haiku and make it available as open source.

There is no contradiction here: you are just mixing up open source code and branding, two different aspects that coexist in the same project but that require different thinking.

Reply Score: 2

v Comment by primelight@live.com
by primelight@live.com on Sun 20th Apr 2008 10:52 UTC
beosfrance Member since:
2007-04-10

Why making the same mistakes again ?
This problem was already a big one with DevEd, MaxEd, MiniEd, Dan0, ... and even more with Zeta.
Now we have one OS for all, which should be followed as kind of a standard for such a small comunity.

Why making distros from the same system, moreover with different names (- ARRGGHHH !!! -), instead of packages to download or inscluded on install CD for the only one official Haiku-OS, with updates for those packages.

But in any case, i think distros or packages comes waaayyy to early in the Haiku history. We should talk, think together and do things together (in multilingual for exemple) test test test ... and release those side project the same day Haiku comes officialy to R1.

My 0,02€

Reply Score: 3

shapeshifter Member since:
2006-09-19

Umm, you sound like an Apple commercial.
This kind of totalitarian thinking doesn'n fly in the the land of free software.
If code is licensed under an open source license then anybody can freely use and change it, anytime.

Reply Score: 2

beosfrance Member since:
2007-04-10

No real relation between the Apple full control and making distros of an OS not even in Alpha version. That's also just my opinion that such a small comunity should all work on the same branch before R1.
After R1, that's different... i must confess that on this point (distros / packages / guidelines / prematurate), i'm 100% agree with Koki.

Edited 2008-04-20 20:55 UTC

Reply Score: 1

memson Member since:
2006-01-01

Why making the same mistakes again ?
This problem was already a big one with DevEd, MaxEd, MiniEd, Dan0, ... and even more with Zeta.


Dano was never a distro. Dano was a leaked BETA version of R5.1.

Dan0 does not exist, by the way. Maui was the code name for R5.0, based on Hawaii 5.0. Dano was a character from Hawaii 5.0. The beta version of Maui was called Maui/0. The version of Dano released was called Dano/0. Dano was never called Dan0.

Reply Score: 3

beosfrance Member since:
2007-04-10

Dan0 does not exist, by the way. Maui was the code name for R5.0, based on Hawaii 5.0. Dano was a character from Hawaii 5.0. The beta version of Maui was called Maui/0. The version of Dano released was called Dano/0. Dano was never called Dan0.


Nice history lesson, i didn't know, thanks ;)

Reply Score: 1

umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Haiku is currently an unstable piece of crap, to be honest. They should focus more on quality than legalese and sexy home pages for the next five years.


Moron.

So, while the developers are working in all their spare time to bring Haiku to alpha quality - what exactly do you recommend that all the non-developer community members focus on? Shall we simply encourage everyone else to take all the hard work already completed and advertise that it's finished?

Perhaps you downloaded and used a non-official "Haiku" distribution that was loaded with old BeOS software that crashed regularly and was extremely unstable for you. And then you came here and claimed that Haiku is a POS and unstable.

Hint: I'm suggesting that your first impression of Haiku may not have been what the Haiku project intended, and instead you got a sub-par experience from a pre-alpha testing/development image rather than waiting for the Haiku project to release anything official themselves.

I'm using your point to help prove further why it's necessary to protect brand names and trademarks in this situation.

Reply Score: 8

shapeshifter Member since:
2006-09-19

You're right.
Most people will continue to use Linux and just read about Haiku.
We're more productive that way.

Reply Score: 0

StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Most people will continue to use Linux and just read about Haiku.
We're more productive that way.


As demonstrated by your productive contribution to this thread, right?

Reply Score: 3

Comment by TheNerd
by TheNerd on Sun 20th Apr 2008 15:07 UTC
TheNerd
Member since:
2007-06-30

From my point of view (haikuware.com) this "distro" was really only created because of the feedback that was received from the Haiku community about the "Weekly Superpack" we were putting out.

The Superpack was not originally intended to be a separate distro it was simply meant to be an easy way for people to test Haiku with actual software that one might want to use.

Since Haiku's downloadable builds do not include any extra software it is difficult for some people to get a good look at what Haiku is and can do at this point. Especially if they are using a hardware or vmware configuration that does not give network support.

We (haikuware) were simply trying to provide an avenue for people to familiarize themselves with Haiku and maybe even encourage them to become involved with the project.

It was brought up a couple times before whether or not we actually had created a "distro" and in the past we were told that as long as we provided a disclaimer on boot (alert message) stating that it was pre-alpha code and unstable that we were ok to proceed that way. This time it was brought up we were encouraged to remove the Haiku name and logos and re-brand it to better follow the distro guidlines.

I believe that Karl has handled the whole thing very professionally and has taken the appropriate actions to follow the guidelines. On the other hand, I do understand why Jorge has taken the stance he has. He is very passionate about Haiku and does great things for the project so in now way, IMO, does Haikuware.com, Karl, or I want to devalue that in any way.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by TheNerd
by koki on Sun 20th Apr 2008 18:36 UTC in reply to "Comment by TheNerd"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

From my point of view (haikuware.com) this "distro" was really only created because of the feedback that was received from the Haiku community about the "Weekly Superpack" we were putting out.

The Superpack was not originally intended to be a separate distro it was simply meant to be an easy way for people to test Haiku with actual software that one might want to use.

Since Haiku's downloadable builds do not include any extra software it is difficult for some people to get a good look at what Haiku is and can do at this point. Especially if they are using a hardware or vmware configuration that does not give network support.


There is a good reason why Haiku does not have:

* Extra software
* A live CD
* A downloadable ISO
* All the gooddies that people want to use
* Etc. (add here whatever app/option/feature that has been asked for on the mailing list or forums)

It's because this is for the most part "end user mode" stuff, and we are still in "early development mode," so the priorities are different.

Please give the developers and the project a chance to prove itself before jumping into conclusions. The Haiku developers have not even decided yet what applications will go into the official Haiku distro/s (yes, there may be more than one). So it is simply premature and pure speculation at this time to say or assume what Haiku will or will not include in terms of applications.

If and when Haiku makes it's official end-user release(s) you find that it does not address your needs (or those of others, for that matter), then there is definitely a place for third party opportunities. But to make such an assumption today is simply too premature.

We (haikuware) were simply trying to provide an avenue for people to familiarize themselves with Haiku and maybe even encourage them to become involved with the project.


At this stage, Haiku is targeting only developers, primarily those who can contribute code and/or do some serious testing/debugging. Anybody who does not have the inclination to spend the time or the ability to setup his/her own development environment simply does not fall into this category.

What I am trying to say is that your "avenue" is most likely falling into the wrong hands, with the potential pitfalls that that can entail in terms of missed expectations by people who don't (want to) understand what pre-alpha software is.

As a project, we are making a concerted effort to try to create an OS that has a high standard of quality; we are also making a conscious effort to manage end user expectations, as we want to avoid bad first impressions. The release of Haiku-branded packages as Haikuware has been doing until recently, the way the packages have been portrayed (with too much room for misinterpretation), their legally questionable inclusion of proprietary software at times, and the generalized misuse of the Haiku name and logos on the Haikuware site all go in detriment of these efforts, and that's what we take issue with.

It was brought up a couple times before whether or not we actually had created a "distro" and in the past we were told that as long as we provided a disclaimer on boot (alert message) stating that it was pre-alpha code and unstable that we were ok to proceed that way. This time it was brought up we were encouraged to remove the Haiku name and logos and re-brand it to better follow the distro guidlines.


There is no last time and this time. This is really simple: the current distro guidelines predate Haikuware packages; Karl just had to read and follow them.

Instead, he kept pushing the envelope with his Haiku-branded packages, and somehow felt he had carte blanche because nobody told him anything for a while. He finally crossed a line of no return when he recently included proprietary BeOS software in one of them, and that's when I actually decided to break the silence and raise the issue.

If, as you claim, Karl had no intention of creating a distro, there was really no need to create one. Originally you started the weekly pack as an application only package, and it would have been better if it had stayed that way: he could have scratched his itch, and we wouldn't be having this conversation now. ;)

I believe that Karl has handled the whole thing very professionally and has taken the appropriate actions to follow the guidelines.


I don't think ignoring the desires of the Haiku developers, disregarding the distro guidelines (which are pretty clear, btw), distributing Haiku with proprietary software without permission or attempting to use HAICOO as a distro name shows any professionalism, nor do I see how any of this advances Haiku in any beneficial way.

As I said on the Haiku mailing list recently, I wish we could all forget about Haiku distros for now and instead tried to figure out how each one of us can help advance Haiku to that first release that we all so much desire.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by TheNerd
by kvdman on Sun 20th Apr 2008 20:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by TheNerd"
kvdman Member since:
2006-04-28

[q]nor do I see how any of this advances Haiku in any beneficial way.


The point of the Superpacks, now Senryu, was to provide users with a more fulfiling experience under a virtualized environment - to demonstrate Haiku's capabilities. Take the default images provided by haiku-filess.org. No proper graphics, burning, audio, or network support (explanation how to get networking running). What impression does that leave? Then they come with 150mb of free space. What can we do with 150mb these days? Why not increase, or make a growing disk of 10gb so we don't have to keep careful watch of space restrictions?

The other idea, was to bundle some tested, working, and popular BeOS applications to show that Haiku really does what it says, achieve binary compatibility... If a user of the images then decides to try some other applications on the disk image he can now actually download stuff to it because it's big enough, he/she can then file a bug report if it doesn't work as expected, because guess what? A browser is included.

I've tried many BeOS applications under Haiku, and many didn't work (many did too ;) . After testing failing binaries, I filed bug reports, which led to bugs being uncovered in Haiku, which led to Haiku becoming more stable and Haiku's vision of being binary compatible inch closer to its goal. This is what I hope for with these disk images.

For the developer edition, the hope was to cut down the time, size, and energy needed to setup a build environment in the hopes that the image would get into the hands of interested developers that may contribute to Haiku.

That's the purpose, and that's how I thought it would benefit Haiku; but clearly opinions differ.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by TheNerd
by koki on Sun 20th Apr 2008 23:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by TheNerd"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

Hi Karl,

You raise several points here, some of which are valid. Let me try to address each one individually.

The point of the Superpacks, now Senryu, was to provide users with a more fulfiling experience under a virtualized environment - to demonstrate Haiku's capabilities.


Haiku is still a moving target; the nightly builds that you use to create the superpacks/senryu not only are far from being stable, but many times they break, sometimes pretty badly. This is definitely not a good base as a tool to demonstrate the capabilities of what Haiku is expected to become in the end, nor will it give any fulfilling experience to anyone who may have any kind of end user experience the expectations. The moment you say that you want to "to provide users with a more fulfilling experience," you are creating an expectation that cannot be currently met. Which is why we do not have demo/images CDs yet.

Take the default images provided by haiku-filess.org. No proper graphics, burning, audio, or network support (explanation how to get networking running).


1) First of all, you need to acknowledge that this is pre-alpha software, and that by definition it is not feature complete, nor fully functional.

2) The VMware graphics driver is left out of the official nightly builds because it does not fully work when you go into KDL. Because the nightly builds are meant to be for testing/debugging, providing functionality in the kernel debbugger is more important.

3) AFAIK, audio and network do work. But if they don't and you know what needs to be done, please provide a solution through the Haiku mailing list or Trac, to see if the solution can be included in the nightly builds. This is the best way to help Haiku.

What impression does that leave?


I think you are missing the fact that there is a very specific intended audience for the nightly builds, and that this audience is expected to understand what pre-alpha software is and will therefore not jump to the kind of conclusions that your question implies. That's how we portray and position the builds, not as demos or trials.

IOW, at this point in the development of Haiku, the nightly builds are not designed or meant to impress anyone, although they are definitely impressive how good they can run at times. ;)

Then they come with 150mb of free space. What can we do with 150mb these days? Why not increase, or make a growing disk of 10gb so we don't have to keep careful watch of space restrictions?


Now, I think this is a valid point, and I would definitely be in favor of addressing it if possible. May I suggest that you work with Sikosis (who manages our nightly builds) to see how this can be fixed? ;)

I've tried many BeOS applications under Haiku, and many didn't work (many did too ;) . After testing failing binaries, I filed bug reports, which led to bugs being uncovered in Haiku, which led to Haiku becoming more stable and Haiku's vision of being binary compatible inch closer to its goal. This is what I hope for with these disk images.


Good point: but you do not need to create a distro for this. An applications pack the users can download would perfectly serve this purpose, and it would save you (and me) from the burden of having to deal with branding, trademarks, guidelines, etc. ;)

For the developer edition, the hope was to cut down the time, size, and energy needed to setup a build environment in the hopes that the image would get into the hands of interested developers that may contribute to Haiku.


I do see your logic, but someone who will not spend time to setup their own development environment can hardly be considered as a serious candidate for Haiku development.

I do acknowledge that there may be ways to make it easier for developers to become productive sooner though. But then again, may I suggest that you try to work with Sikosis and the other Haiku devs to see what viable options can be considered to address this from within the project?

That's the purpose, and that's how I thought it would benefit Haiku; but clearly opinions differ.


The purpose has its logic and is not the problem per se. The problem is when you put this in the context of the pre-alpha software that Haiku still is, and the various goals that the project has set for itself with regards to quality, branding, etc. That's when you start seeing the discrepancies between the (good) intentions and the potentially negative ramifications.

HTH.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by TheNerd
by bbjimmy on Mon 21st Apr 2008 04:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by TheNerd"
bbjimmy Member since:
2006-03-25

1) First of all, you need to acknowledge that this is pre-alpha software, and that by definition it is not feature complete, nor fully functional.


He does ... did you look at the screenshot of the about window?

2) The VMware graphics driver is left out of the official nightly builds because it does not fully work when you go into KDL. Because the nightly builds are meant to be for testing/debugging, providing functionality in the kernel debbugger is more important


Sometimes testing requires video that works.

I think you are missing the fact that there is a very specific intended audience for the nightly builds, and that this audience is expected to understand what pre-alpha software is and will therefore not jump to the kind of conclusions that your question implies. That's how we portray and position the builds, not as demos or trials.


You seem to miss the point that the superpack does indeed position the software as pre-alpha, it just lets the software be seen by a larger group than your private little developer club. This is open source software. If you don't want others to try it, even pre-alpha, than maybe you should quit developing it and forget it exists. You can't control who will see your work unless you develop private closed source software.




Good point: but you do not need to create a distro for this. An applications pack the users can download would perfectly serve this purpose, and it would save you (and me) from the burden of having to deal with branding, trademarks, guidelines, etc. ;)


Actually, he does. This is the only way new testers can test and report on broken software.


I do see your logic, but someone who will not spend time to setup their own development environment can hardly be considered as a serious candidate for Haiku development.


I detect some HAIKU / BeOS snobbery here. Who are you to say that there might not be a very talented and willing developer that will overlook HAIKU because the current devs are insuring and insisting that it is so damned difficult to get a working development environment up and running? You seem to think that a potential developer is willing to spend hours setting up a development environment when he does not even know what HAIKU is all about. GET REAL

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by TheNerd
by koki on Mon 21st Apr 2008 05:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by TheNerd"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

He does ... did you look at the screenshot of the about window?


I don't think you understand the point that I am trying to make. It is not the lack of disclaimers, but the fundamental fact that there is an intent to provide an end user experience from pre-alpha software that is problematic. You are creating an expectation that Haiku
is not ready to meet yet.

Sometimes testing requires video that works.


Yes, and that's exactly why the Haiku developers decided to remove the VMWare video driver from the official builds, because it is not fully functional in KDL.

Actually, he does. This is the only way new testers can test and report on broken software.


Why? A software package that people can download would serve exactly the same purpose. As a matter of fact, that's what the Haikuware superpack started as at the beginning. Now that I think of it, it may be even be possible for Karl to work with the developers so that such an application package can be included as an option in the Haiku build process. This is what third party application maintainers are doing (ie., Vision, Wonderbush, Firefox, Pe, etc.), and it works well.

I detect some HAIKU / BeOS snobbery here...


You are probably reading too much into all this. This is open source: the code is online; the development tools are available; there is also a reasonable amount of documentation available on our website; and we have a very friendly and responsive community on mailing lists as well as IRC happy to help. Any eager developer would most likely be able to get started with development with relative ease; your mileage may vary depending on your skills, but it is not as difficult as you want to make it sound.

According to you, the superpack is intended to address people not willing to make the investment currently required to get started. From what we have seen so far during the life of our project, anyone not willing to make such an initial investment is very unlikely to become a serious candidate for Haiku development.

HTH.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by TheNerd
by petterhj on Mon 21st Apr 2008 09:45 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by TheNerd"
petterhj Member since:
2005-08-19

"Good point: but you do not need to create a distro for this. An applications pack the users can download would perfectly serve this purpose, and it would save you (and me) from the burden of having to deal with branding, trademarks, guidelines, etc. ;)


Actually, he does. This is the only way new testers can test and report on broken software.
"

Thats bull. He could easily have mad an application pack, or better, a BFS intialized VMWare "disk-file" with the increased size and applications. Then he just could have made a new VMX file with this in mind, so that people could download the vmware file and just place the "official" haiku.vmdk in the same folder. No need to update the pack as often, but only when new software is to be included.

But I guess it just isn't as "cool" as to be the one in charge of the "first Haiku distro" and so on.

Reply Score: 2

v Comment by primelight@live.com
by primelight@live.com on Sun 20th Apr 2008 16:20 UTC
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

No, it was the stock Haiku distribution with no (stable) BeOS software installed.

Seriously. Get the damn thing working.


Oh phew - then you clearly saw any warnings that were posted - and know that you are testing an OS that is only for testing purposes.

So, you've confirmed now that are you a true troll, and not someone who was simply misinformed.

Reply Score: 6

StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Seriously. Get the damn thing working.


Awww, the baby wants his bottle. How adorable.

Reply Score: 2

Easy testing is a good thing
by thewolf on Mon 21st Apr 2008 07:40 UTC
thewolf
Member since:
2007-12-27

I'm not a software developer, but as a web developer and designer I do have other skills that could be useful for the project. But I'm not going to pay attention to any project that actively makes it hard for non-developers to get involved.

From my perspective it's a good thing to have "distros" at an early stage, it lets me gauge to some extent what progress has been made. And please don't point out that "distros" may contain non-functional software, I'm well aware of that fact.

This snobbery seriously dampens my desire to take part in the project at all.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Easy testing is a good thing
by koki on Mon 21st Apr 2008 17:12 UTC in reply to "Easy testing is a good thing"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

Can you be more specific on how we make it hard for non-developers to get involved?

In your specific case, please join the haiku-web mailing list here...

http://www.freelists.org/list/haiku-web

...send an email introducing yourself and tell us in what areas you would like to help out. We have a small team there working on a number of web-related projects that you may be able to contribute to.

Reply Score: 1

re: the developer edition
by kvdman on Mon 21st Apr 2008 14:24 UTC
kvdman
Member since:
2006-04-28

I may add, that a lot of the big names make development easier for their platforms by providing SDKs for software and hardware. One may consider Senryu D.E something like this.

Reply Score: 1