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Oh, come on poundsmack. If it had an appreciably higher return rate, it would not make sense for them to sell it. In fact, considering the economic arm-twisting which Microsoft is in a position to do, and the advantages to Dell of "craplet bundling" on their Windows offerings, it only makes any sense to ship Linux products if there is a clear economic advantage in their doing do. Color me impressed. I was not certain that that would be the case in the face of the obstacles faced by non-Microsoft players.

Edited 2009-08-12 23:28 UTC

True about Microsoft's arm twisting, but I'm not exactly surprised about this. Remember, the Linux netbooks (Asus, Acer, and the like) were shipping with crippled, cut-down versions of Linux with ancient versions of the accompanying software (Firefox 2.0, seriously) , and updating was nearly impossible as the repositories often weren't even tested. Dell, on the other hand, is using Ubuntu which, no matter what one might think of it, is at least well supported and does work properly for the majority of people. They've got a system that is supported fairly well by its maintainers, and that will likely be supported for a long time to come. They have all the elements in place... well, except for offering the hardware that I want, but hey that's just me.
One other possibility to consider though, is that the majority of people buying these may already be Linux enthusiasts who want to support Dell's Ubuntu systems and therefore are buying one. It wouldn't be likely, in that case, to see many returns at all. Just another angle on it.

I don't know the situation in Netherlands, but in New Zealand you can purchase a Linux netbook from Dell but only if you look very hard for it. If you type "Linux" into the search box you will find, hidden among the workstations and servers, a single Linux netbook, at a very reasonable price. But if you try going from top down using the regular links you can't find it (and I looked specifically).

the big diff is that netherlands do not use english as primary language.

that is, its not about the language on the machine itself, but support and manuals provided. all that has to be prepped for non-english speakers, if dell hopes to sell it outside of the techs that at least read and write english near fluently...

Dell some but very few manuals in Dutch language, many products ship with English manuals. The operating system on machines shipped is a Dutch language version though, so some product customization needs to be done. However, Linux is much more friendly with this than Windows, since the language of the operating system can be switched without reinstallation.

well English isn't a primary language, but everybody does speek more or less, so that isn't an issue at all.

Selling Linux Desktops to consumers now is not really a financial advantage. Dell has said numerous times, that their Linux Desktop investments are of a strategic nature.

They don't necessarily lose money with this at the moment. But building the support and development infrastructure is not cheap.

Don't they "outsource" software support to Canonical? That would be a very logical option, since you know, it's Canonical that is behind Ubuntu.

Just tell that to all those blind teenagers with hairy palms.

Go into a restaurant you have never been in and order something you have never had off of a menu. Ordering something is totally different from actually having used it and no most users have not used Linux and don't know what it is and might be expecting something else.

Using your analogy, it's like walking into a restaurant, ordering something I've never had before, for example caviar, and then when the waiter brings it out, saying, "hey, what the hell, this isn't a steak!!"

It's not a matter of being intimately familiar with Linux or even having used/heard of it before, it's basic reading comprehension. If under the "Select My Operating System" screen, someone is to choose something other than Windows, don't expect to get Windows. As such it is my mistake for assuming consumers can do this properly!

Edited 2009-08-13 00:54 UTC

It's not even that easy, you have to go to a special page to get the Linux offer. There you are told that Ubuntu is not Windows so your programs won't work.
It is like someone walking into a vegan restaurant with a big "WE DO NOT HAVE ANY MEAT" sign outside and complaining that there isn't any meat in the menu.

It's not even that easy, you have to go to a special page to get the Linux offer. There you are told that Ubuntu is not Windows so your programs won't work. It is like someone walking into a vegan restaurant with a big "WE DO NOT HAVE ANY MEAT" sign outside and complaining that there isn't any meat in the menu. "

Actually, in the case of a netbook, if it had a proper version of Linux installed (such as is the case with Dell machines), returning it would be more like walking into an "all you can eat" restaurant with a big "ALL YOU CAN EAT" sign outside and complaining that there was too much good food in the menu.

Edited 2009-08-13 04:28 UTC

...or like going into the buffet because of that attractive sign, look around then leave because they don't serve what you are craving for.

Believe me, it happened to me; either with food or software. Guess that's why I'm not too finicky and go to buffets, gourmet restaurants and fast food joints...

Probably due to they hype that claims "Ubuntu can do everything Windows can do". Then, when the consumer gets the machine and attempts to load their Windows software on it and it doesn't work, they send it back. The average consumer will not look for alternatives, they just want what they own to run on any machine they buy. People in general despise change.

Probably due to they hype that claims "Ubuntu can do everything Windows can do". Then, when the consumer gets the machine and attempts to load their Windows software on it and it doesn't work, they send it back. The average consumer will not look for alternatives, they just want what they own to run on any machine they buy. People in general despise change. "

They should also then, by that logic, return Windows machines because they cannot run the software in Ubuntu's repositories nor can they run software downloaded from here:

http://www.getdeb.net/

or here

http://happypenguin.org/

or here

http://www.linuxgames.com/

or here

http://www.tuxgames.com/

or here

https://launchpad.net/

Edited 2009-08-13 05:55 UTC

Hmmm no. That's not the logic he used. If I have a piece of software that runs on Windows, I expect it to work on my new machine.

Those repositories are light-years away from any user that has no idea what Linux is in the first place. They have the software (or know pieces of software) and if it doesn't work, they simply don't want to go repository hunting.

Understandable, in my opinion.

Hmmm no. That's not the logic he used. If I have a piece of software that runs on Windows, I expect it to work on my new machine.

Those repositories are light-years away from any user that has no idea what Linux is in the first place. They have the software (or know pieces of software) and if it doesn't work, they simply don't want to go repository hunting.

Understandable, in my opinion. "

One doesn't have to go "repository hunting".

The Dell machines have Ubuntu installed. On the very top level "Applications" menu, there is an item called "Add/Remove". Like this.

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/images/installingsoftware01.png

It is quite difficult to miss, even for Windows ... errrrr ... users.

Add/Remove on the Applications menu ... what's that all about then ... I wonder what that could possibly mean? ...

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/installingsoftware

Well blow me down (thinks the Windows user) ... thousands upon thousands of applications ...

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/images/installingsoftware03.png

... searchable

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/images/installingsoftware04.png

just tick, or un-tick then apply changes ... how easy is that? ... and all I need is an internet connection!

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/images/installingsoftware05.png

I don't eve need a browser, and its all free!

Edited 2009-08-13 11:07 UTC

Bla bla bla…

USER WITH HIS NEW UBUNTU DELL:
"my Windows software won't work, I'll send it back."

End of the story.

This is not about Ubuntu or Linux in general not having software, it's about Windows users not being able to run their known software, and therefore, returning the computer.

I know Ubuntu, thank you for the screenshots, but that is not the point.

Read the article. Dell says the return rate of Ubuntu Linux machines is the same as the return rate of Windows machines.

Do all Windows users have reading comprehension troubles, or what?

What do Windows fanboys think this sentence means ... "Microsoft often claimed that netbooks running Linux saw higher return rates than those running Windows, but according to Dell, this is utter nonsense"

Sheesh!



Read it again. Dell says that this is NOT the case.



You are welcome.

There may however be a few people who are not familiar with Ubuntu, and who would be utterly astounded to see Ubuntu's "Add/Remove" applications ... given the eternally repeated FUD one hears from Windows fanboys that supposedly "linux has no software", or that supposedly "on linux it is hard to install software".

Double sheesh.

Edited 2009-08-13 11:24 UTC

I guess you're right about that, although I'd be skeptical about anything coming from Dell; in either case, I don't think you can compare return rate for Windows/Linux, because probably the former is way more popular. It's not fair to say, we sold 100 windows boxes and 10 linux. 10 Windows were returned, 1 linux was returned, hence the return rate is the same…

I don't think that proves anything, except maybe that 10% of Dell boxes are returned. (I made the numbers for the sake of the example).


[/q]

Oh but you can see those everywhere. OS X doesn't have software either, does it?

Read it again. Dell says that this is NOT the case. "

Actually what Dell said, if you read it, is that they are not being returned for technical reasons. A technical reason has nothing to do with whether the software they have runs on the machine or not. A technical reason would be "The modem is broken". We would have to ask Dell exactly why the netbooks are being returned to know. Since the Windows and Linux return rates are about the same, that would indicate hardware, which would be a technical issue.

How much does Canonical pay you anyway?

Hm... I bet that those people will be surprised that they cannot insert their DVD/CD anywhere to install their Windows software, let alone say that it does not work.(I am talking about netbooks, obviously)

Edited 2009-08-13 21:53 UTC

Hmmm no. That's not the logic he used. If I have a piece of software that runs on Windows, I expect it to work on my new machine.

Those repositories are light-years away from any user that has no idea what Linux is in the first place. They have the software (or know pieces of software) and if it doesn't work, they simply don't want to go repository hunting.

Understandable, in my opinion. "

and I could use the same retarded logic in the reverse for Linux software. It doesn't make it anymore valid. It just comes back to users with stupid expectations.

You have no idea what a user means then. So expecting your box of Microsoft Money to work on your new computer is retarded? You're probably a geek or computer enthusiast that never talked to a user.

If you tell a user "linux is better and cheaper get it". He might do it, thinking that his microsoft office will still work. Users don't see any difference. Sorry if it hurts, but that is the way it is, whether you like it or not.

I've had a lot of friends, sometimes even fairly technically-minded people who knew what they where doing, test That Cool New Ubuntu Thing that Dave (me) Talks About, only to very quickly give up when none of their Windows software runs. Even when they knew it was coming. Particularly games: for many people my age, a computer that won't run Steam games (reliably and simply) is just not that useful. Now, when someone comments on how neat-looking Ubuntu's default Gnome theme is, I basically tell them, "yeah, but it won't run anything you want."

So... yeah, exactly, you're right. People want their computer to run the software they already have and use. They will eventually decide that a computer that doesn't run the windows software they already have is useless to them, whether they knew what they where getting into ahead-of-time or not.

Edited 2009-08-13 16:00 UTC

I think this is the main point.

People mistankingly assume that a Netbook is a small and cheap laptop, but of course we know it isn't.
So a portion of the customers return it because of the quoted reason.

What people in this discussion are missing it that this happends independent of which operating system is installed, at least for Dell.

Just because a model uses WindowsXP does not mean it will run the software the user wants to run on it. The operating system might be compatible, the CPU might understand the instructions sent to it, but properly executing instructions of a properly installed program is not equal to running the software. Technically it is, for the users it isn't.

It doesn't hurt. It just proves how stupid the avg user is and how stupid you are.

Do you need to insult? What makes you think a person is stupid because of that? Nobody cares about that. Do you think you're not stupid just because you can buy a (in your opinion) better computer, and do more things with it than the avg user?

You're so cheap. I can probably run circles around you in so many non computer related areas that you'd be surprised. Oh, you're a super boy because you can add/remove a program in Ubuntu… wow!

Congratulations, you've won the id10t of the year prize.

Have a nice day, I'm off.

The flaw in your reasoning assumes that the average consumer has a clue and has already spent days and lots of time to get the software from those places. The average consumer could care less about those places, unless they actually wanted Ubuntu or Linux. The real problem is reading comprehension, which when it comes to anything positive about Windows or Negative about Linux, you have that issue as well. I will say your posts/rants keep me entertained

Where is the days worth of installing programs?

Well, on a modem connection perhaps that would make sense. On an average highspeed connection from your local phone or cable provider, it should be around an hour. Actually full system rebuild from install disk through to complete software list takes about an hour with Debian; this being more comprehensive than the prestamped liveCD.

Insert netinstall disk, format drive, download base system, reboot, download the rest of the software; an hour. I flipped my notebook from 32bit to 64bit Debian. The only difference was that I have a lovely "aptitude install app1 app2 app3" bash file (.bat or .cmd for the Windows folks). Let's add on an extra twenty minutes to a half hour for a user reading the program descriptions in the graphic Add/Remove utility. Heck, round it up to two hours even; still much shorter than Windows, plus drivers, plus apps, plus updates. (my time is about an afternoon for Windows given OS, updates, drivers, applications, updates again; I'd really like to be able to script more of it)

Actually it normally takes about 45 minutes at most for me, no matter what distro. What I was referring to was some of the average users that are still on dial-up. You do realize that about 26% of people in the US can't get broadband right? The local phone companies don't even offer the service, and the infrastructure is not in place in certain locations? Sad but true.

You'll notice that I have a bit about dialup as a cause for such long install times near the top of my comment.

With Red Hat and Mandrake back in the day, I used an ftp install diskette and small numbers of packages at a time. Minimum to get first boot then add in stuff bit by bit. Nothing like lossing a network connection part way through a giant download when you can easily see which small bit got blown instead.

These days, Debian has a nice set of disks for non-network install. It also provides a method of downloading packages through a fast connection for later install on your machine with slow connection. I think apt-zip is the tool for that. Mandriva has the full DVD or multiple CDs of it's archive. This is really only a place where the liveCD distributions have issue.

It should be pretty obvious that MS Office 2007 and Vista are two separate things but I can't tell you the number of times someone has mentioned that they got a machine with that new Vista with the new sliding menus at the top; meaning WindowsXP and Office 2007.

I'm still not seeing any information that really points away from poor product placement in stores (and websites) combined with poor sales staff miss-managing the customer's expectations so they can get another sale unit on there commission record.

Many people don't understand what an operating system is or what it does. My parents thought Windows was an intrinsic part of the computer, they didn't realize that it was just software, like the applications they use, and that it could be replaced -- or that the thing that you replaced it with wouldn't do exactly the same thing. I don't know what kind of idiot-proofing and warning messages surround the OS choice menu, but I can easily believe that many people don't know what an OS is, don't realize that it will be different from Windows, and don't realize that their software is tied to their OS choice, and that software for one OS won't run on another, different one.

Exactly. When I still was reading Windows manuals (long time ago) I was always astonished that they never used the term "operating system". It was always "Windows" instead. Their customers don't like to be confronted with unknown vocabulary and MS takes care of that.

A Battlestar Galactica fan? "

Non-Abrahamic religions are real too. Geez.

That said, I say frak way too much.

Well, you do realize that I was joking, right?


So say we all.

Well, when running Ubuntu natively on my Macbook I get roughly 5 hours, which is about what OS X gives me. My other portable is an Eee PC 1000HE, and yes with the Eee-specific power management I easily get 8 hours, which is a little more than XP and about 1.5 hours longer than Windows 7 gives me on the same Netbook even with its ACPI drivers and such installed. From my experience, I've had equal or better results with Linux as opposed to Windows, but this can of course vary quite a bit depending on the specific model of computer and pre-configured options specific to one Linux os or the other. Ubuntu, from my experience, doesn't have the best configuration optimized for power management on some portables (i.e. CPUFreq not preconfigured among other power-saving features that aren't enabled by default).

I run Kubuntu Jaunty on my netbook, with the KDE 4.3 (backport) desktop environment.

KDE4 desktop includes specific provisons to be less demanding on battery life, and it includes a new applet called PowerDevil for power management software.

The netbook achieves almost exactly the same battery life when running under either KDE 4.3 or Windows XP Home.

Netbooks generally aren't capable of running Vista in an acceptable way.

If you are running a desktop other than KDE4, then perhaps this might be a solution:

http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/05/26/update-on-miserware-beta...

Edited 2009-08-13 04:22 UTC

Of course he did ... he said a "high return rate" is a "non-issue" ... which is to say it is an issue which doesn't exist. There is no high return rate.



No, it means the return rate for Linux netbooks is roughly the same for Windows netbooks, and neither rate is high.



He said that there is no technical difference either ... people aren't having any trouble with drivers for their Linux netbooks, for example.



Precisely. He says that both return rates are similar, and low.

Actually when something isn't an issue, it's typically, in english, deamed not a problem...not that it doesn't exist.

Well, actually, it depends on the user. "no issues" and "non issue" cam both mean the same thing and not quite. All of his other quotes proves it to mean that there is no issue of high return rates.

I'm pretty sure you read it right between the lines. Dell probably does not count certain types of returns in its return rate. Example, fraudulent purchases, consumer can't pay and possibly mistaken purchases are things Dell would not want to go into a published official return rate which would make the hardware look bad.

Pare categories down enough and that leaves "systems returned for technical reasons" as a qualifier.

"We are not seeing any technical reasons for why they are returning Linux machines so...we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux. We've been quite pleased with the stability and technical soundness of the Linux machines."

This means that after returns for non-technical reasons are thrown out of the equation (and we know they exist as they have stated elsewhere), the return rate is the same.

Edited 2009-08-13 13:51 UTC

But returning a Linux netbook is not an technical issue, it's a preference issue.
Also there is a differents between 'not an issue' and 'a non-issue'.
The article is very confusing.

Edited 2009-08-13 14:50 UTC

Maybe then Dell should count the into return rate of Windows machines, returns based on people not liking the color of their computer? Color is also a preference issue.

Let me quote the article:

That means only one thing - return rates are not high enough to matter. Sure there are returns, just as Windows machines have returns.

The original article is very straight forward.

You are missing the point. Utterly.

Dell is saying that the return rate is NOT higher for its Linux machines.

Actually they are saying the return rate for netbooks is NOT higher in regards to technical reasons.

Are you making an assumption, or is this based on fact? How do you know what Dell was saying, based on this aricle? There are a couple of key comments in the article which suggest that Dell is only considering "technical issues". The first is a quote from the article itself:
"Where consumers have returned machines, Finch said, it wasn't because of technical problems but because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface. Consumers had responded to the low price, he said - the Mini 10v retails for $299 online."

The second is a direct quote of Finch, again from the article:
""We are not seeing any technical reasons for why they are returning Linux machines so...we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux. We've been quite pleased with the stability and technical soundness of the Linux machines.""

Both comments make it seem as though Dell, via Finch, is acknowledging only returns due to technical issues. From what I see in the article, Turner only claims a more general higher return rate.

In absence of actual return data from Dell, the point is moot. We can only interpret the content of the artical, and the statements quoted within. Based on this, I don't see where the article reconciles the two perspectives adequately. However, a conclusion is being drawn in this post that Dell's rebuttal debunks Turner's comments. I don't think that we seen anything to support that, at least not in way which warrants emotional comments seen in response.

Thanks for any additional insight you can provide.

Technically I agree with you on the points you made.
However you are missing the context here. It is Dell's senior product marketing manager explicitly stating that Microsoft's statement is not true. You may believe his judgment, or you may not, but he is the only one that has access to relevant data and he is not obliged to share it with anyone.