Linked by Patrick Reen on Wed 18th Jun 2003 02:38 UTC
Linux This article is a review of Linuxinstall.org 3.0, a Redhat 8.0 based distro aimed at the new home user [that's me]. Some time back, after reinstalling windows for the umpteenth time I knew there had to be a better alternative. But the more I researched the more confused I got. Debian-Slackware-Knoppix-Redhat? etc,etc. Linux was [is] totally new to me - I wanted stability and speed without the viruses, but I was starting to get overwhelmed from choice and command line phobia. I just wanted an o.s. similiar to Windows in ease of use, but stable!
Order by: Score:
ease of use?
by Joe on Wed 18th Jun 2003 02:49 UTC

Why not just buy a Mac? If you don't want to pay full price, you can pick one up on eBay. I think people waste way too much time dinking around with Linux when there is a perfectly good alternative to Windows that is even easier to use.

yes, go for Mac
by Danny on Wed 18th Jun 2003 02:54 UTC

I totally agree with Joe, in fact I just switched to Mac for this exact reason and it is a much better alternative compared to linux (since you can have all the microsoft, adobe, etc apps that you need)

screenshots?
by ret on Wed 18th Jun 2003 02:54 UTC

any screenshots?

RE: screenshots?
by Eugenia on Wed 18th Jun 2003 02:59 UTC

Why you need screenshots? Have you never seen before KDE or gnome? ;)

no isos?
by ret on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:00 UTC

any one who can provide iso here? ;)

RE: screenshots?
by ret on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:02 UTC

well i have seen the screenshots at linuxinstall.org , sorry.. i was used to see screenshots on most of osnews reviews here ;)

I just have to wonder why...
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:03 UTC

I just have to wonder why this guy is having so many problems.

...after reinstalling windows for the umpteenth time...

That begs the question, "which version of Windows is this person running and on what kind of hardware?" If this is Win9x I could understand...but XP I can't. It has been rock solid on every system I have run it on (and there are a few...). If the hardware can't take XP...then I could understand. I just don't get why there are some who have so many problems keeping Windows stable.

Now, he does say:

I'm on the internet thru Linux - look Ma, no viruses

Ok...so maybe the problem is viruses. These leads to two questions:

1. Why is this person getting so many viruses. What are they doing to have so many viruses attack his computer?

2. Has this person considered antivirus software?! Most virus scanners do not cost much these days.

As far as the winmodem problem goes...I used to experience that. Unfortunately it remains a serious Linux problem. I have had my share of winmodem problems. Two suggestions would be to:

1. get a Linux friendly modem

2. switch to broadband.

As far as LinuxInstall goes I haven't tried it myself. Considering it is based on RH 8 it should be decent though I would suggest trying to get a more recent build. For those who are stuck with dial-up and would like to try and get a distro of Linux, I would suggest visiting a public library and checking out a recent Linux book...the install CDs should be in there. That is how I got started when I was on dial-up plus you'll have a convenient reference to help aquaint you with Linux.

Yes, I AGREE
by evilEntity on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:07 UTC

I think Joe's comment should automatically be pasted as the first comment from now on for every damn stupid Linux desktop review done by just anyone. I am SO sick of the "Ease of use" phrase as the focal point as of which Linux is becoming.

Linux IS a UNIX Alternative. A FREE, very similar UNIX alternative for the x86 low cost platform (among others). It is a hobbiest OS gone corporate. It is meant for doing what Unix does best, serving. Not trying to replace or give an alternative to Windows. For this, there is Mac. An Elegant coverup of _it's_ Unix underpinning that will never be matched in the free world. For this, you need Corporate guidance.

eE

RE: ease of use?
by Chris on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:13 UTC

He paid 5 bucks for the LinuxInstall OS to put onto a computer he already owns. See if you can find a Mac on ebay for 5 bucks including the shipping. Maybe you can get a Mac with a huge 1.2 gig hard drive and a wopping 120 processor for 5 bucks. Will it have a cd burner, or an OS higher than OS 7.X? Now, see if you can simply update to the latest versions of any software on that Mac, including the latest kernel, for free using something like Apt.

It makes no sense to throw out his perfectly good i686 that duel boots with Win2K for an antiquated old Mac off ebay.

Get real!

What I don't get
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:15 UTC

What I don't get is why there is opposition to Linux becoming a desktop OS. It does handle this role just fine. Granted...the typical Windows or Mac user may find many challenges when they configure Linux to be a desktop OS...but it does handle this role very well.

An entire movement is pushing Linux to become more friendly to the type of user I mentioned above and there are companies that are making money and contributing great software back to the open source community because ot if.

Why one earth would anyone want to keep an OS from having tools to aid in becoming more friendly to newbies or having an installation class for a desktop/workstation rather than a server.

WTF...?! Gee, which do you prefer...the very confusing app or the easy to understand yet does exactly the same job app.

Ease of use is critical to the success of any platform. Linux is just another platform...why not make things easy. It doesn't have to lose any power just because it is easy. The existence of GUI doesn't mean the command line has to disappear.

RE What I don't get
by Chris on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:27 UTC

I agree completely. Having choices simply means having freedom. Why not make a stable OS like Linux into something other than a server OS. Yes, for now it is complicated, but thanks to Distros like LinuxInstall and a few others I have tried, it is not only possible but probable.

I use it for everyday.

RE: I just have to wonder...
by Greg on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:29 UTC

Well, I think the author was just sick of Windows. In any case, $5 vs. $499 (yes, maybe that's not the best price able to be found, but it's "official".) seems like a pretty good deal (Don't say XP is necessarily a better system. For example, for my needs Linux is superior in every way, while Windows doesn't even come with a compiler. I'm not a gamer, so that's no problem).

RE: What I don't get
by Greg on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:34 UTC

I also agree. evilEntity, since there are people in these forums posting smarter comments than you, I guess by your logic you should stop posting altogether and go back to browsing, since that's all you're good at.

I love KDE, and I'm not giving it up for Luna (a Luna widget style would be nice though...). Linux is on *my* desktop, and as long as Linux is popular enough to assure some compatibility, I don't care how popular it is. Use whatever you want.


All hardware sucks, all software sucks.

RE: RE: I just have to wonder...
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 03:46 UTC

Don't say XP is necessarily a better system

I wasn't trying to say that XP is better than Linux...but I DO think XP is better than Win95/Win98/WinME.

I can understand the impulse to sudden;y want to try Linux out of disgust of Windows. I think that is how many of us get started exploring Linux (and other OSes).

I am just baffled though by how it is that some people keep needing to reinstall Windows. I had to do that a couple of times on Win9X after experimenting extensively with the registry and performing other not-so-recommended hacks. Since I switched to XP...things have been very smooth.

I do still though spend a good deal of my time in Linux.

I hear what you are saying about the missing compiler in Windows. I miss the good old days that Quick Basic came with Win3.1. LOL Yes...absolute junk by todays standards but I wish that compilers were a part of every OS.

I think there are freebie command line compiler tools that I saw from Microsoft once (yes...even Microsoft can offer free stuff). If I find it, I will post it, but I do recall think that it was crap.

What about video editing?
by Megamike on Wed 18th Jun 2003 04:11 UTC

I use several programs to make home videos and such. None of this is possible with Linux right?

RE: What about video editing?
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 04:17 UTC

Wrong

http://www.exploits.org/v4l/

That is just one of many sites that has a bunch o' software.

I don't do a lot of video editing...but I have seen a variety of apps.

Sorry I can't be more help here...

Pretty much anything that you would do on Windows or MacOS can be done on Linux...it is just a matter of finding the app that fits your needs.

Linux not for easy video editing
by Mark Wilson on Wed 18th Jun 2003 04:30 UTC

If you're a professional and have a technical staff, you can edit video and do related work on Linux (or a Unix), but it won't be as easy as (1) get an app, (2) install it, (3) plug in your DV camera and (4) edit. That's just a fact of life.

If you want to edit video easily, buy a Mac (any current eMac or iMac would be sufficient) and use iMovie (which is included on every Mac). If you need a little more power, buy a copy of Final Cut Express (about $200).

I don't recommend a Windows solution for easy video editing (but check the reviews on cnet and other tech consumer sites).

RE: Linux not for easy video editing
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 04:35 UTC

if you want to edit video easily, buy a Mac (any current eMac or iMac would be sufficient) and use iMovie (which is included on every Mac). If you need a little more power, buy a copy of Final Cut Express (about $200).

I don't recommend a Windows solution for easy video editing (but check the reviews on cnet and other tech consumer sites).


I do agree...Windows is generally not a great platform for video editing. It seems like everyone that I know who has tried to edit video on Windows has been frustrated and then turned to a Mac and been very happy.

I have done some video editing on a Mac myself...nothing really complex...but it was incredibly easy compared to one Windows.

As far as Linux...like I said it isn't really my area of expertise and I actually haven't tried editing video on Linux. I just know that there are tools available. What sort of quality of tools are available...that's fuzzy. I would guess that it is like anything in Linux...a full spectrum of quality, features, etc. How easy finding a right solution will be for Linux...again...dunno.

Reistalling Windows
by victoria on Wed 18th Jun 2003 05:08 UTC

I think there are a lot of myths out there about windows instability and having to reinstall regularly. I've used almost all windows flavours and found the 3x and 9x series to be quite stable enough for my uses. I tortured them a bit and was always changing settings, installing and removing apps etc. Definitely not a timid user. 9x rarely crashed and I am certain that I managed to crash 3x only once (running on a Thinkpad)in 18 months. In my experience Linux distros do not provide a better desktop experience or even a more stable one (application crashes, kernel panic). It does however provide a *different* experience with an entirely different philosophy of software developemnt and useage at its root.

RE: Linux not for easy video editing
by Spark on Wed 18th Jun 2003 05:11 UTC

Nope, no easy video editor yet. What I know is Kino, which has a decent UI but using Gtk1 and not extremely userfriendly. I don't know how well it works for video capturing because I don't have a cam and the info on the website is confusing me as a non-expert. Improving and working on Kino (especially porting it to Gtk2 and overhauling the interface) would certainly be a good project.

Then there is Cinelerra which I heard would be very powerful but much too complex for simple home video editing. You just need to red the "recommended front end system":
Dual 2Ghz Athlon.
1GB RAM.
200 GB storage for movie files.
Gigabit ethernet

From the unusual GUI you can also see that this is clearly target at professionals, like Blender.

RE: Linux not for easy video editing
by Chris on Wed 18th Jun 2003 05:15 UTC

I don't know anything about Video editing on Linux except for the fact that Dream Works Studios uses Linux (Red Hat) to produce their animated movies. The animated movie "Spirit" was their first to be completely rendered using Linux on HP computers. I understand it was the speed, along with the cost, of that combination which convinced Dream Works to equip their entire animation studio with Linux computeres.

I read about this on Red Hat's own site.

Re: Jason
by Insignia! on Wed 18th Jun 2003 05:37 UTC

"I am just baffled though by how it is that some people keep needing to reinstall Windows"

Believe me, cruft does build up in XP over a few months. I do a lot of heavy music sequencing and sound processing, and there are times that XP suddenly poofs and reboots. I'm not saying it's always XP's fault, but it happens.

RE: Reistalling Windows
by Chris on Wed 18th Jun 2003 05:42 UTC

I guess you are just one of those lucky Windows users.

As fare as a linux kernel panic, the only time that has ever occured for me is when I didn't have Grub or Lilo configured right. A quick change to their conf files and all was well. But I do admit, I have probable only recompiled as many kernels as you have crashed Windows. As far as linux apps crashing, at least they don't take the whole OS down with them. Yeah, maybe have to restart X.

I have walked away from my Windows 98 computer and returned a few times to a blue screen. No ryhme or reason, sometimes it did, and sometimes it didn't. I have a Red Hat Linux router that is only rebooted when the power grid goes down, but that only sometimes happens when a storm blows in off the Pacific in winter.

Sorry if my question is stupid
by Anonymous on Wed 18th Jun 2003 05:55 UTC

How can his LinuxInstall AUTOMATICALLY detect TIME ZONE??? The guy might be lying, or happened to be in the same zone as the default one.

New comers
by Mark on Wed 18th Jun 2003 06:33 UTC

The first advice to those wishing to evaluate linux would be to get a book and read it thoroughly in order to avoid common pitfalls.

Next, to those wishing to access the internet with their new linux box, I would say : "ditch that mockery of a modem (the internal one) and get a real one (the external)". At least, you won't bother with the lack of drivers.

Finally, you should get a high speed connection if it's affordable in your area. This way, you'll be able to download new releases without hassle (1 hour compared to 5 with a 56k modem).

...
by Anonymous on Wed 18th Jun 2003 06:49 UTC

People are stupid.

easy of use?
by beosman on Wed 18th Jun 2003 08:28 UTC

Easy of use? Try BeOS. PC + BeOS = cheap + stable.

Reboots
by Anonymous on Wed 18th Jun 2003 09:00 UTC

Believe me, cruft does build up in XP over a few months. I do a lot of heavy music sequencing and sound processing, and there are times that XP suddenly poofs and reboots. I'm not saying it's always XP's fault, but it happens.

I have exactly the same problem. Win98 through to XP are pretty stable if you're just using Office but start playing with software that actually uses more than 1% of the computer and it can't handle it. I've had, and several of my friends have had the random XP reboot problem regularly (at least once a week).

I'm sorry but if you're working your computer then its going to get stuffed and need a rebuild, regardless of whether its Win98/XP or Linux - it just happens, the more you install the messier it gets, you hard drive gets full, programs leave things behind such as files and registry settings and the only 100% peace of mind solution is the wipe the thing and start again. It's just with Linux (and XP) you have to do this a lot less (a lot lot lot less with Linux).

Rebuilds are not a matter of opinion there a matter of fact.

windows XP/2000
by nestordiaz on Wed 18th Jun 2003 09:06 UTC

I agree with people that say winXp is a good OS (apart from ethical beliefs) but is a fact winXp cannot be installed in any pc and also doesn't run properly in most older than p4 with 1g of ram. There you can use Linux. Even win2000 is picky with the hardware. Compatibility at hardware and software level is one of the Linux big Big BIG points. I got two p2 400 with 128 and are available for free in a cafe, both have Mandrake Linux, one with kde and the other with gnome. One have also a webserver. Could I do that with winXp? No way man.

RE: What about video editing?
by b0d on Wed 18th Jun 2003 09:08 UTC

Wrong. There's plenty of software out there for video editing, you just have to look for it. The MainActor suite of programs is a start....

RE: Jason & His Compiler Comment
by Matthew Baulch on Wed 18th Jun 2003 09:12 UTC

> but I wish that compilers were a part of every OS.

They are, except windows. Even MacOSX comes with compilers out of the box.

Huh??
by linux_baby on Wed 18th Jun 2003 10:36 UTC

What's with all these mac comments? Somebody installs a new system, likes it, says it works great for him, and the only reaction you have is to want to force a mac down his throat?
Mac is condemned to remain a niche OS, and that's if it survives the long run. Get over it!

It looks pretty cool
by Dan on Wed 18th Jun 2003 10:54 UTC

I don't know what all you people are against people making 'newbie' Linux Distro's I am a newbie myself and this Distro seems great, as for a Mac they are too darn expensive!

RE: Sorry if my question is stupid
by Antarica on Wed 18th Jun 2003 11:04 UTC

How can his LinuxInstall AUTOMATICALLY detect TIME ZONE??? The guy might be lying, or happened to be in the same zone as the default one.

If the installation is for dual-boot, the install program may well look the windows configuration to set-up the timezone (don't know, just a hint)

RE Sorry if my question is stupid
by Dan on Wed 18th Jun 2003 11:10 UTC

AFAIK when a OS installs along side another OS, or if another OS has been installed before, it looked at the Battery Backed Up Real Time Clock on the Motherboard of the Computer that keeps the time right when the computer is turned off. It then looks at that and coordinates it clock with that.

RE: Reboots
by Vincent T. Vantine on Wed 18th Jun 2003 11:22 UTC

Those reboots are an indication of a stop error. To get the actual error message, disable the automatic reboot in the "Startup and Recovery" settings located in the System Properties dialogue. More than likely some flakey drivers are to blame. Once the reboot is disabled, it will display the full stop error and should give you some indication of what driver or application is at fault.

To evilEntity
by Nice on Wed 18th Jun 2003 11:58 UTC

Did you know that there is a Linux distribution known as EvilEntity?

I think Joe's comment should automatically be pasted as the first comment from now on for every damn stupid Linux desktop review done by just anyone. I am SO sick of the "Ease of use" phrase as the focal point as of which Linux is becoming.

A troll's wetdream.

Linux IS a UNIX Alternative. A FREE, very similar UNIX alternative for the x86 low cost platform (among others). It is a hobbiest OS gone corporate. It is meant for doing what Unix does best, serving. Not trying to replace or give an alternative to Windows. For this, there is Mac. An Elegant coverup of _it's_ Unix underpinning that will never be matched in the free world. For this, you need Corporate guidance.

Yes, it is a UNIX alternative. It is also a Windows alternative. A BeOS alternative and any other OS alternative.

Yes, it is a hobbyist OS gone corporate. It is also gaining ground on the desktop.

No, the Mac is not the only alternative to Windows.

Yes, Linux is elegant. Yes, it covers up UNIX.

What does Corporate guidance have to do with anything? I fail to see your point.

Here are some more thoughts about Linux:

Linux is Linux.

Linux is a kernel.

Distribution take the Linux kernel, add GNU applications and other applications (try that with Windows).

LinuxInstall is one of many distributions based on Red Hat Linux.

It's nice to see more people using Linux.

This list could go on for days.

/A Linuxphile

RE: It looks pretty cool
by Anonymous on Wed 18th Jun 2003 12:09 UTC

I don't know what all you people are against people making 'newbie' Linux Distro's I am a newbie myself and this Distro seems great, as for a Mac they are too darn expensive!

Knoppix _is_ a newbie distro, Mandrake _is_ a newbie distro, SuSE _is_ a newbie distro. So why bother with a not widespread distro ?

WinXP Sys Reqs - debunking
by Chris D.Emery on Wed 18th Jun 2003 12:25 UTC

there is an awful lot of crap being said in this thread about XP System Requirements. P4 with 1 Gig indeed... bulls***

I have installed XP on 2 333mhz PCs with 128Mb RAM, and a 350 with only 64Mb.

On all of them it ran perfectly and with extreme stability.

The only thing that can take down XP is bad hardware or unsigned drivers. Neither is Microsofts responsibility!!!!! I refuse to use either, and consequently suffer none of the problems.

RE: Sorry if my question is stupid
by Anonymous on Wed 18th Jun 2003 12:27 UTC

It gets timezone by connecting to the internet and figuring out your geographical location by IP and upstream providers.

Couple of points
by Jay on Wed 18th Jun 2003 12:29 UTC

I'm very interested in ease of use and this distro sort of sounds like a Gnome version of Vector Linux (that uses KDE). I was impressed by the author's description of the installation. Iuse Red Hat 9 as it is, but am tempted to send him the five bucks through PayPal so I can see how it does.

He has no iso because he says he can't afford that type of server time/space/cost, etc.The source code is downloadable though.

It's a one person distro, just one guy did it and does it. It really does sound like a good newbie distro.

LOL, the screenshots are ugggggly! But, it's all just themes and stuff you can change.

RE: windows XP/2000
by DingoFish on Wed 18th Jun 2003 12:44 UTC

Please. And I thought only Windows advocates got accused of FUD.

I guess my k6-450 with 128 MB never really did have XP Pro running on it did it? Have you even used XP, or just like to bash it with your 1337 buddies on IRC?

People like you are so funny....

{ How can his LinuxInstall AUTOMATICALLY detect TIME ZONE??? The guy might be lying, or happened to be in the same zone as the default one. }

Red Hat 8 and Red Hat 9 go by the Bios clock, most modern BIOSes have that feature, if you get an older machine it doesnt work.

Why not just buy a Mac?
by fizzol on Wed 18th Jun 2003 13:30 UTC

Because Macs are expensive?
Because Macs have limited software and hardware support?
Becasue the "ease of use" of Macs is mostly marketing hype?
Because of slope-head fanbois who think tossing out a perfectly good working PC and buying a gimp Mac is a good idea?

MainActor
by DeadFish Man on Wed 18th Jun 2003 13:48 UTC

For those looking for a easy to use Video Editting app for Linux, there is MainActor - http://www.mainconcept.com/index_flash.shtml. I couldnīt find any info about the Linux version in this site but I heard that SuSE ships it along with their latest offerings.

Never used myself, but seems quite easy for what I can see in the MainConceptīs website.

Cheers,

DeadFish Man

About Dreamworks using Linux
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 13:54 UTC

What app does Dreamworks use?

Could they may have chosen to use something like Maya which is available for Linux.

RE: New comers
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:00 UTC

Next, to those wishing to access the internet with their new linux box, I would say : "ditch that mockery of a modem (the internal one) and get a real one (the external)". At least, you won't bother with the lack of drivers.

NO NO NO

You can use an internal modem fine...just make sure that there are Linux drivers available. If you have a remotely decent modem, you should be able to use Linux with it. I had internal modem support for the few years prior to my switching to broadband.

Not every internal modem is a Winmodem.

RE: easy of use?
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:04 UTC

I would love to but I have yet to get my network card to work with it. What I have seen for BeOS network card support off of BeBits has been abysmal. If you know a good repository of network card drivers (etc.) please post it.

I did like BeOS as an OS, but it just lacks current hardware support in my experience. When Zeta rolls out with a final build I might take that for a spin.

RE: Reboots
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:10 UTC

I just don't get that. Yeah...there were a few times with Win98 that I had to re-install...but that was after lots of tweaking and doing things that I shouldn't

WinXP hasn't given me any problems I actually have had an easier time on XP than Linux.

Anonymous, you mention that the computer fills up with crap. That makes me wonder about the hardware. It seems to me that most of the really unstable Windows boxes that I have seen have had Windows crammed in there...barely enough HD space and memory. This certainly can be a root for instability. Linux typically doesn't need as much space as Windows hence the same hardware can run Linux better than Windows. Just an observation...any thoughts?

RE: windows XP/2000 @ nestordiaz
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:20 UTC

One have also a webserver. Could I do that with winXp? No way man.

Hmm...that is interesting. I am using XP as a web server on my lan. If you want to hook it to the internet and serve pages to the outside world there may be a tweak for IIS to do it (not sure) or you could just install Apache.

For those of you about to write that "Apache comes with Linux...blah blah blah", not always. SuSE 8.2 Personal I had to get it seperately. I am sure there are other Linux distros that require manually fetching and installing and configuring. That is a small price for a free web server (true) but if you just want to do things on a Lan XP can serve with IIS out fo the box.

I do agree about the hardware issue. Linux will run on older stuff which is great.

Microsoft when they released W2K stated that they were dumping a big chunk of legacy HW support. When XP came out, they did the same...only more strict. If you have the right HW for XP, things go very very smoothly. It is picky...and I am ok with that because I don't like skimping on HW anyway.

RE: RE: Jason & His Compiler Comment
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:22 UTC

They are, except windows. Even MacOSX comes with compilers out of the box.

Well...that would be what I was trying to say.

There also USED to be compilers for Windows in the box...but alas not anymore. There are freebies from MS that are command line compilers suppossedly, but I don't recall where I saw them on MSDN. If I see them I will post a link.

RE: RE: windows XP/2000 @ DingoFish
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:29 UTC

I guess my k6-450 with 128 MB never really did have XP Pro running on it did it? Have you even used XP, or just like to bash it with your 1337 buddies on IRC?

Got ya beat. I had W2K on a K6-2 300 with 64 MB ram and it was fine. A little sluggish with Office XP Pro, but for most things it was fine. Granted, it was not nearly the performer that WinXP Pro on my P4 1.7Ghz has been...but one would not expect it to be.

Victoria
by Luckett on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:33 UTC

show me a linux kernel panic, those never happen unless you are doing something wrong and advanced...ive seen 2 and i have been using linux for 4 years.. and both of those were booting from corrupted floppies.

Thanks for the article, Patrick
by john on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:49 UTC

1. Patrick, I have had the same experiences, esp. with the modem. Drivers for these things are supposedly coming, if only with limited capability. One major modem problem is that the providers of Linux drivers almost always assume you will be on a Linux system when--what else--when downloading and installing the appropriate driver for you modem, which presupposes you're already online. The dog chases its tail. On your recommendation I will try Linuxinstall. Unfortunately, IMO, Linux in general, meaning any distro now available, is not ready for primetime.

2. Some people advise getting a Mac to solve the "stability" problem, or for video editing, etc. But Apple Inc is every bit as much of a monopoly as MS, even worse. Apple's smaller scale makes it seem like an innocent little competitor to the big bad MS, when in fact you'd better think twice about buying into that exclusive club--because there's no way out. Married to the mob.

3. I myself have spent enuf downtime dealing with Windows, and Word, and licences, and listening to the fantastic gobbletygook of Bill Gates on TV--people in the audience looking at the Guru Billionaire with doe-eyed adulation--and I'm not going to feed his obscene--yes, it's obscene-- wealth! There comes a time.


RE: Why not just buy a Mac?
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:52 UTC

A: Macs are expensive...though if I were starting out with no computer, this would NOT be a factor

B: I have a lot invested in my PC (both SW and HW) and knowledge. Yes...I realize Macs are easy. That isn't the problem. I just am not going to go ahead and repurchase my apps for another platform. Way too expensive (some apps around $1000). Before you bring up Virtual PC, I'll stop you before you start. No thanks. I've seen it and am not interested. Things run slow under emulation. I don't like slow.

C: Windows Only apps...I have a few apps that are Windows only as well. JASC Paint Shop Pro...I like it far more than ANYTHING Adobe has produced. I will never give it up.

RE: MainActor
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 14:54 UTC

Yeah...SuSE 8.2 has MainActor.

re: What about video editing?
by hmmm on Wed 18th Jun 2003 15:02 UTC

I use several programs to make home videos and such. None of this is possible with Linux right?

Never say stuff like that, its a dumb question. Linux can do anything an OS can do. Have you heard of filmgimp or recent Movies? Most of them have either been renderred or editted partially on Linux.

but I was starting to get overwhelmed from choice and command line phobia.
Go to http://www.distrowatch.com/ and pick one of the most widespread !

I just wanted an o.s. similiar to Windows in ease of use, but stable!
I want everything for free but I don't want to learn nor change my habits!

Yes...Distrowatch is great site.

I just wanted an o.s. similiar to Windows in ease of use, but stable!
I want everything for free but I don't want to learn nor change my habits!


Sorry...gotta disagree with you here (well sorta). Yes, people when learing a new OS should expect to have to read, learn, and change their habits.

What I think the person was trying to get at was that they want something that is intuitve, which I see nothing wrong with wanting an intuitive Linux distro.

XP reboot problem
by Debman on Wed 18th Jun 2003 15:33 UTC

actualy, that is by design. XP reboots when it BSODs. I have actualy caught the BSOD just before my laptop rebooted because I was just looking at the screen when it happened rather than working...and tehre it was, a flash of blue with some white text.

RE: XP reboot problem
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 15:45 UTC

I still don't know why it is that there are some that are claiming that XP reboots all the time.

I'll make it really clear...I don't necessarily doubt it...I just don't understand it becuase all the people that I know that are running XP Pro do not have problems. I do know someone who is using XP Home that has problems (course they also are not very computer literate and try and put Zip disks into floppy drives).

From what I understand...most XP problems are realated to uncertified HW and SW.

If you are having a lot of problems with XP being unstable try checking the Windows catalog at Miscrosoft's web site: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/catalog/

If you're hardware and software are listed you shouldn't have problems. MS made it real clear that anything not on that list can result in problems...particularly hardware.

RE: About Dreamworks using Linux
by Chris on Wed 18th Jun 2003 16:01 UTC
Linux not 'easy to use' but 'intuitive'...
by Mystilleef on Wed 18th Jun 2003 16:54 UTC

Hello,

People actually think they can me comfortable in the *nix envrionment without doing tons of reading, research, testing, experimenting and finally and most importantly, adjusting ones mentality and attitude to computing.

No one becomes a linux convert overnight or even more so in a forthnight. If computing isn't a hobby, you can as well forget about linux. No, we are not after ease of use, we are after brute force, hardcore computing. The attitude is "It will and has to work under my terms". People confuse or substitute the word 'ease of use' for 'intuitive to use'. The are two different things. People with brains and a reasoning faculty don't need things to be easy to use, those are mentally challenged individuals.

Individuals who can read, write and comprehend need things to be intuitive. That is, the operations of an event should natural, logical and rational. The placements of widget should appear in a space where people will naturally tend to look at. The working of a programs follows logical steps people innately agree with.

This largely has to do with how developers plan, design and code there programs. Some programs are intuitive and quick to get into. Others are just horrible. Linux is an intuitive operating system not one that is easy to use. If you can read and write, you obviously have brains, you don't expect us to spoon feed you. If can't use your initiative, use your determination and sacrifice a little time to understanding what make *unices thick, I'm afraid Linux experience will be seriously handicapped.

Yes, agree Linux is not yet ready for the 'easy to use' masses. But it sure ready for people who can read, write and think, and who are willing to sacrifice the time to do so. Otherwise, like other have suggested, MAC is your best alternative for now.

Regards,

Mystilleef

Linuxinstall
by JB on Wed 18th Jun 2003 18:44 UTC

I,ve enjoyed Linuxinstall since 1.0 but with 3.0 and all the plugin,s I,ve had it on both system,s since April and I,m glad to see Thomas get some long over due credit.

Re: RE: XP reboot problem
by Daan on Wed 18th Jun 2003 19:03 UTC

"From what I understand...most XP problems are realated to uncertified HW and SW."

Another reason to switch to Linux. No hardware certification - supported hardware actually works almost always, unlike Windows as it seems.

Re: RE: XP reboot problem
by JK on Wed 18th Jun 2003 19:28 UTC

"Another reason to switch to Linux. No hardware certification - supported hardware actually works almost always, unlike Windows as it seems."

Bad drivers can crash any OS. I had constant crashing in Linux a couple of years ago, caused by buggy graphics card drivers.

My big problem with Linux reliability is how bad it seems to be at surviving crashes. Almost every time I've had to restart without properly shutting down the system, something has been damaged by the crash. Most of the time it's quicker to reinstall everything from scratch rather than try to fix everything that's been broken. I've had numerous crashes in Windows 98, 2K and XP, yet I've never had any files damaged by the crashes.

Every time I try to get something working in Linux I'm paranoid that it's going to crash and self destruct. I find it very hard to trust Linux when I've repeatedly had this happen.

RE: Re: RE: XP reboot problem
by Chris on Wed 18th Jun 2003 20:26 UTC

Are you aware of the works "BACK UP"?

It is generally a good idea to back up your system on occasion. You might want to explore the ins and outs of properly backing up your system in case of failure.

It makes far more sense than reinstalling the whole OS.

Regards

Re: Re: RE: XP reboot problem
by DeadFish Man on Wed 18th Jun 2003 20:26 UTC

"Another reason to switch to Linux. No hardware certification - supported hardware actually works almost always, unlike Windows as it seems."

Bad drivers can crash any OS. I had constant crashing in Linux a couple of years ago, caused by buggy graphics card drivers.


I have an nVidia RIVA TNT2 Rev. 64 with 32 Mb (quite old video card) that works just fine with the drivers provided by nVidia. Never had those crashes that people say all the time, but I know that it is capable of very nasty things. Maybe Iīm just lucky.

My big problem with Linux reliability is how bad it seems to be at surviving crashes. Almost every time I've had to restart without properly shutting down the system, something has been damaged by the crash.

Seems like you had this experience a long time ago or at least with a very old release of some distro. Today, with journal filesystems, it is near impossible to happen such thing. Please note that even when I used ext2, I havenīt lost anything.

Most of the time it's quicker to reinstall everything from scratch rather than try to fix everything that's been broken. I've had numerous crashes in Windows 98, 2K and XP, yet I've never had any files damaged by the crashes.

When you know what to fix and how you do it, it isnīt that hard. Personally, Iīd hate to reinstall Linux and reconfigure everything that Iīve done so far (Iīm still using RH8.0 with everything patched and wonīt switch to 9.0 until that Wine issue remains. Iīve got used to emulate certain things....).

[/i]Every time I try to get something working in Linux I'm paranoid that it's going to crash and self destruct. I find it very hard to trust Linux when I've repeatedly had this happen.[/i]

It has been stated before in this forum: when we are learning a new operating system, we should expect things to go wild simply because we donīt have the know-how/expertise to avoid some mistakes or to fix things ourselves and then a complete reinstall seems to be the only feasible thing to do. Iīm sure that you have broken Windows a couple of times when you were learning you way around it. Everybody did it (unless those who really donīt use computers for nothing more than write letters, e-mails and surf the Web).

Why it should be different with Linux (or BeOS, or MacOSX, or <put any OS here> for that matter)???

RE: Linux not 'easy to use' but 'intuitive'...
by briber on Wed 18th Jun 2003 20:32 UTC

Hey Mystilleef, methinks you don't understand the concept of ease of use with regard to computer operating systems in general or Linux in particular.

Don't feel bad, it's a common occurance. Since the dawn of computing there have been plenty of jackasses who have had the following fallacy pass through their grey matter.

[1] Powerful things are good.
[2] Powerful are hard.
therefore...
[3] It is good that powerful things are hard.

For example, consider journaling filesystems. A few years ago, providing (either by developing or porting) a journaling file system for use in Linux was firmly placed in the 'to do' column. Now, in 2003, we suffer an embarassment of riches with regard to journaling file systems (EXT3, ReiserFS, JFS, XFS... wow!)

What then is the connection with ease of use?

Well, by your logic, using EXT2 is *better* because it requires the user to:

[a] kwow what a file system is
know what fsck is
[c] know to manually run fsck at regular intervals
-or-
[d] know what cron is so you can run fsck automatically

I AM NOT saying that knowing something is bad or that learning should be avoided at any cost. However, IMNSHO, not having to worry about file system corruption in the first place is real ease of use.

Take note that in this example, ease of use does not come with any downsides. What's good for the Fortune 500 data base administrator is also good for the home hobbyist.

But hey, if you want to prostrate yourself before the altar_of_things_that_are_needlessly_complicated_and/or_difficult_
go ahead, I'm not going to try and stop you.

[remove caps to email me]

oops
by briber on Wed 18th Jun 2003 20:37 UTC

forgot that *left bracket* b *right bracket* is htmlspeak for bold

[remove caps to email me]

Re:
by Dano on Wed 18th Jun 2003 20:51 UTC

How can his LinuxInstall AUTOMATICALLY detect TIME ZONE??? The guy might be lying, or happened to be in the same zone as the default one.

RE:
by Stedman on Wed 18th Jun 2003 21:08 UTC

I have a 10005 KP 32 Ralph C with Linux as my premier O.S. I'd have to say it's about the best setup you can get, along with the Total Windows BS package.

riva tnt2 is old?!
by nic on Wed 18th Jun 2003 22:18 UTC

good lord...not everyone is a gamer. in fact if you dont game, the Riva TNT2 w/ 32MB ram is a GREAT vid card!

RE:
by lightnin1973 on Wed 18th Jun 2003 22:32 UTC

well... in my opinion XP is the best thing MS has done yet, can't wait to see what's next

strikingly odd, i am a total linux fan.

what you people need to realize is, while linux is awesome (and I myself use it as an everyday desktop os) windows is just too easy for most people. plain and simple.
and I have never ever had xp crash on me, never had funky memory problems, never had a reboot.
but i do prefer linux over windows, i like being in control and doing things my way. go figure.

LMAO!!!
by Matt Lacey on Wed 18th Jun 2003 22:50 UTC

"Whoppee! I'm on the internet thru Linux - look Ma, no viruses."


That made me laugh ;)

I haven't actually read the comments above properly as I just wanted to add this. However, I did notices people complaining about XP rebooting - I am a Linux/BSD/BeOS person, although I have 2k on my machine for games that don't work with WineX (and for Tie Fighhter which wouldn't work in XP). Anyway....

Rebooting occurs upon a major error to try and make it look not as broken (that's the only reason i can think of as an error message (BSOD) would be quite scary for some people. This behavious can be turned off however!

Right click on "My Computer" and choose "properties"

Click "Advanced" and then the "settings" button in the "Startup and Recovery" section (at the bottom).

Finally untick the "Automatically Restart" under the "System Failure" section. Hope this helps someone ;)

RE: RE: Linux not 'easy to use' but 'intuitive'...
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 23:32 UTC

briber

I couldn't agree with you more. Just because something is easy to use doesn't mean it is less powerful than other solutions. I would even contend that the easier/more intuitive something is, the more powerful it will be in the end becuase the user actually has a chance to understand more about the system without having to refer to a reference. In the end, the same goals, same functions achieved in less time with less hassle to move on to more things.

RE: riva tnt2 is old?!
by Jason on Wed 18th Jun 2003 23:35 UTC

good lord...not everyone is a gamer. in fact if you dont game, the Riva TNT2 w/ 32MB ram is a GREAT vid card!

Agreed.

My TNT2 (now in what will be a file server for my home network) has been trouble free and actually still doesn't a decent job on some games (decent...not spectacular).

Kernel Panic
by victoria on Wed 18th Jun 2003 23:44 UTC

Happened immediately after a fresh install of Mandrake 9. First reboot.

Re: Re: RE: XP reboot problem
by JK on Thu 19th Jun 2003 01:16 UTC

Chris: "Are you aware of the works "BACK UP"?"

I back up all my important data constantly, but I've never bothered backing up the whole OS. I doubt restoring a whole Linux installation from multiple CD-RWs would be much quicker than reinstalling the whole OS. Plus backing it up every time I make a change to the system would waste a lot of time. It's something that's never been necessary in Windows, yet Linux has been fatally damaged by crashes several times.

DeadFish Man: "Seems like you had this experience a long time ago or at least with a very old release of some distro. Today, with journal filesystems, it is near impossible to happen such thing. Please note that even when I used ext2, I havenīt lost anything."

I've had a crash damage the system in Mandrake 7.2, Mandrake 8.0 and Mandrake 9.1 just last week. Maybe I've just been very unlucky, but IME this still seems to be a big problem.

DeadFish Man: "When you know what to fix and how you do it, it isnīt that hard."

Please enlighten me. How am I meant to know what I need to fix when it seems like half my software has stopped working, (including things like the Mandrake control center and graphical login)?

DeadFish Man: "Iīm sure that you have broken Windows a couple of times when you were learning you way around it."

Actually I haven't, I had virtually no problems switching to Windows and I've never broken Mac OS either. My bad experience with Linux is the odd one out among all the OSes I've tried.

Re: RE: riva tnt2 is old?!
by DeadFish Man on Thu 19th Jun 2003 02:41 UTC

good lord...not everyone is a gamer. in fact if you dont game, the Riva TNT2 w/ 32MB ram is a GREAT vid card!

Agreed.

My TNT2 (now in what will be a file server for my home network) has been trouble free and actually still doesn't a decent job on some games (decent...not spectacular).


Heheheh... I don't play games at all. I do love some fighting games like King of Fighters, Street Fighter and such and while I play them through emulators like NeoRAGE, ePSXe and FinalBurn sometimes (and that TNT2 is good enough for this), I rather prefer to play them in real arcades. Actually, my wife plays a lot and the onboard chipset is totally crap, so she loved it.

I recently bought that video card to be able to watch my Divx and VCD collections without hassles. And it is worth. But I have been researching for the cheapest video card that I could afford without giving up in quality and came to the decision to buy it. But I live in Brazil, a third world country, and even here it is becoming old.

I believe that in USA and Europe, the entry level video card would be a GeForce2, right?

Re: Re: Re: RE: XP reboot problem
by DeadFish Man on Thu 19th Jun 2003 02:56 UTC

DeadFish Man: "When you know what to fix and how you do it, it isnīt that hard."

Please enlighten me. How am I meant to know what I need to fix when it seems like half my software has stopped working, (including things like the Mandrake control center and graphical login)?


To make half of your software stop working in a Linux box, you need to do something really wrong with glibc and/or the likes. Other than that, is hard to believe that statement.

Usually, if you click in some icon and it does nothing for no reason, you always can open a terminal, type the name of the program you want to run there and see any error messages that might appears in there. Those messages might help you to fix what stopped working.

If graphical login fails, it might be a problem with X configuration or with the login manager itself (XDM, GDM or KDM). And yes, that can be easily fixed too, assuming that they were working before.

Best Regards,

DeadFish Man

Re: Re: Re: RE: XP reboot problem
by JK on Thu 19th Jun 2003 10:17 UTC

And by the time I've done all that I could have reinstalled the OS several times. Personally I'd rather have an OS that doesn't break when the computer crashes.

Re: Time Zone
by Daan on Thu 19th Jun 2003 12:01 UTC

How can his LinuxInstall AUTOMATICALLY detect TIME ZONE??? The guy might be lying, or happened to be in the same zone as the default one.

There is a way I can imagine that makes this work sometimes, namely via the internet. If you go on the internet, you can reverse lookup your hostname in DNS and see where you are.
Google does this: even when I set my system language to English and use the Links browser in English, when I surf to google.com I am automatically forwarded to google.nl.

Or maybe LinuxInstall can figure out what timezone the installed Windows uses...

Or maybe it just uses "Clock set to local time" and does not set a timezone at all. If Windows is used this choice is the one you need, and then without timezone it also works, as far as I know.

RE: RE: windows XP/2000 @ DingoFish
by adapt on Thu 19th Jun 2003 14:08 UTC

Got ya beat. I had W2K on a K6-2 300 with 64 MB ram and it was fine. A little sluggish with Office XP Pro, but for most things it was fine. Granted, it was not nearly the performer that WinXP Pro on my P4 1.7Ghz has been...but one would not expect it to be.


I ran W2K Advanced Server on a old `Gateway2000` PPro200 with 128MB/EDO. Adding a Promise card and 7200rpm drive it actually ran decent.... for about a week. Then installed oBSD and used it for a firewall.


bollocks, my dad had winxp running on his old k6-2 350 and it ran like dog shit. had to upgrade to a duron 1200 and now it runs ok.. its still not brilliant..

face it windows xp is a resource hog.. ive got an amd xp1800+ running windows xp yes i havent had it crash on me in the whole 2 days that i had to run it.. but i had various programs crap out on me.. as for the driver crap.. sorry thats just a big cop out.. most of my hardware is relatively new and i had certificate bollocking warnings.. and i definately dont skimp out on hardware.

as for the time thing as he didnt have a working net connection till after the install id guess its calculating off of cmos time.

but if its doing it from the net then its using ntp. network time protocol.. if u dont know what it is install it on your linux box and look on the net for public ntp servers. trust me ntp is awesome. syncs time with servers on the net.