Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 15th Sep 2005 20:28 UTC
Novell and Ximian The pressure is growing on Novell Inc's management to make major strategic changes after a regulatory filing revealed a Novell shareholder has joined Credit Suisse First Boston in calling for change at the identity management and Linux vendor. The steps proposed by the investment firm include cutting costs by targeting Novell's two corporate jets, its "overstaffed" R&D department, legacy products, and its 400 NetWare engineers, as well as selling non-core businesses to enable funds to be redeployed.
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v Do I hear a flushing sound....
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 20:40 UTC
RE: Do I hear a flushing sound....
by japail on Thu 15th Sep 2005 21:02 UTC in reply to "Do I hear a flushing sound...."
japail Member since:
2005-06-30

I don't know what you're hearing, but I know what you didn't read.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Do I hear a flushing sound....
by rm6990 on Fri 16th Sep 2005 02:17 UTC in reply to "Do I hear a flushing sound...."
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

of SuSE and Ximian going down the drain?. It really will be a big setback for Linux as a software business because if Novell can't make money off Linux, nobody else can. Linux's future is tied only to the hardware guys who have a free resource to sell.

Red Hat is profitable, and according to another article, has very good outlooks right now from analysts. I would hardly call Red Hat a hardware company (unless you include the Red Hat branded jump drives they sell :-P)

Reply Score: 1

Stick a fork in novell
by morglum666 on Thu 15th Sep 2005 20:52 UTC
morglum666
Member since:
2005-07-06

Yes.. back in the day they had a superior product with Netware.
Yes.. they are poor advertisers..

yes.. they are almost dead.

STICK A FORK IN THEM!

Reply Score: 0

RE: Stick a fork in novell
by raver31 on Fri 16th Sep 2005 07:19 UTC in reply to "Stick a fork in novell"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06


STICK A FORK IN THEM!


No, that is evil.
Just poke them with a stick.

Reply Score: 1

This is crazy
by voidlogic on Thu 15th Sep 2005 20:58 UTC
voidlogic
Member since:
2005-09-03

"overstaffed" R&D department and its 400 NetWare engineers

These sounds like the people you want around, even if they are currently mis-allocated.

More companies I have worked at run Netware than Windows or Linux as their primary server OS. This must be a local trend, otherwise I can't imagine why they are doing so poorly.

This is also confusing becuase I have seen a large number of Novell based Linux deals with governments and such come through.

Reply Score: 1

linux will stay a focus
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 20:59 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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from the article "The investment firm has also called on Novell to increase its investment in Linux and open source software through partnerships and acquisitions to move "further up the stack", and added that "it confounds us" why Novell has yet to implement its final proposal: a $500m share repurchase program."

It seems they actually agree with novell on linux but have issues about other things. So I don't think we need to worry about suse or ximian.

Reply Score: 3

RE: linux will stay a focus
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 07:33 UTC in reply to "linux will stay a focus"
Anonymous Member since:
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"It seems they actually agree with novell on linux but have issues about other things. So I don't think we need to worry about suse or ximian."

What we really need to WORRY about is the entire future of Novell. On paper they look as bad as the worst airlines do.

Think for a second they can't go under? THINK AGAIN.

Reply Score: 0

The downside of a public company
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 21:09 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Novell is, generally, making the right moves, and those in the technology sector are talking more about Novell than they have in years. They see Novell as a real provider of technology instead of a legacy vendor (like SCO).

Okay, so the corporate jets may be excessive - though if it really matters to continued busniness that VPs meet potential customers within hour time frames, it may not be.

Novell has been dying for years - and here they are, suddenly growing, sorting stuff out and becoming a solid company again. All those investors who've watched Novell die just want Novell to take no risks, liquidate some assets, and give the investors some short term cash - in other words, turn into SCO (minus the lawsuits).

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Well put!

Is this one of those examples where "financial investors" take their role a little bit too seriously and are only concerened with their money?! SCO might indeed just be the perfect example. Novell still has some great assets and with their current drive there certainly is the opportunity for them to get back into (the big) business.

This is not to say that everything is perfect at Novell, they still have some way to go and to change quite a bit. I think the acquisition of Suse and, perhaps a little less so, Ximian was a stroke of genius. Without suggesting anything, but think about the following setup: Suse and the Novell server software in the background and Ubuntu workstations with Novell cllient software. This would give you a perfectly easy setup to manage and you would also have gorgeous desktops.

One caveat: Personally, I don't like homogeneous environments. That's why my server runs on Solaris/Intel (now V10) and my workstations are 3/4 Macs and 1/4 Linux with only a couple Windows workstations (where absolutely necessary).

But from the point of managability the Suse/Ubuntu solution would be a great alternative to many mixed Linux-environments or even Windows, if you are still running that.

Reply Score: 0

Ximian factor
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 21:14 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Novell biggest mistake was to aquire the vapourware company (ximian )now that the management is ximianized
the situation will be even worse ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ximian factor
by rm6990 on Fri 16th Sep 2005 02:20 UTC in reply to "Ximian factor"
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

Novell biggest mistake was to aquire the vapourware company (ximian )now that the management is ximianized
the situation will be even worse ;)


Care to provide some examples of how Ximian has hurt Novell, or how the current management is "Ximianized", or are you just posting for the sake of having someone read your comments?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ximian factor
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 05:30 UTC in reply to "Ximian factor"
Anonymous Member since:
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I think you miss a good deal of what Ximian and now Novell have contributed to GNOME. If you look at Ximian Desktop, they pioneered the current desktop layout. Ximian brought an enterprise level pim client with Evolution. Gnome-vfs, d-bus, hal, beagle and everything Robert Love is involved in (inotify). There is also things like Red Carpet, Hula, Stetic, F-spot...

Notice I don't mention things like Nautilus, bonobo, gnumeric and the hundreds of other projects that Ximian/Novell employees have been a part of. If you feel that Ximian was not a huge commericial success that is arguable, but to say that they were nothing but "vapourware," is simply not true.

Reply Score: 0

You could wait for this..
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 21:16 UTC
Anonymous
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You could wait for this to happen and it's so common to see.Nevertheless i think it's necessary to cut some cost's and/or at least freshen the business plan.They increased their technology image by acquiring SuSE.

Haven't heard much about Netware in a long time.It's indeed wise to invest more in Linux and seeking new technology.

Reply Score: 1

Stockholder Pressure
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 21:22 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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As I wrote in a thread several days ago.....

Novell stockholders want profit. They don't want to hear about being halfway thru a transition, they don't want to hear about the wonders of open source, and they particularly don't want to hear anymore excuses for piss poor performance.

The brass at Novell promised the stockholders results when they purchased Suse. Months keep clicking by and the excuses continue. The results measured in profit absolutely suck.

Financially it's time for Novell to either produce, or fade away. One or the other will be happening sooner rather than later.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Stockholder Pressure
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 23:01 UTC in reply to "Stockholder Pressure"
Anonymous Member since:
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Novell's stockholders may want profit but they aren't going to get it. More fool them for being greedy. They stood meekly by when Novell bought Ximian, for reasons that remain quite baffling. Flogging off some non-core businesses hardly addresses the core problems. The stock is already massively overvalued based on the company's financial performance, so the stockholders must know that one jitter too far and their investment gets halved in a week. The hard truth is that it looks like Novell will run into the sand before they've built a sustainable business based around SuSE/Linux even though most folks, I think, would say there is a very good business to be built there.

Sounds like the wolves of Wall Street are gathering. So I hope a white knight appears and shafts the lot of them.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Stockholder Pressure
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 02:27 UTC in reply to "RE: Stockholder Pressure"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Sounds like the wolves of Wall Street are gathering. So I hope a white knight appears and shafts the lot of them."

You got the part about wolves on Wall Street correct, they already know the outcome.

Reply Score: 0

Wasted money on Suse
by CanuckleFrog on Thu 15th Sep 2005 21:44 UTC
CanuckleFrog
Member since:
2005-07-29

Ximian was got on the cheap, but they wasted a couple hundred million on Suse when they could've just rolled their own distro. Novell already has brand name , so the Suse name is pointless.

But I don't think it's a secret that this was going to be a rough ride for Novell. Maybe they'll pull through. Maybe desperation is what caused that Novell executive to make stupid comments about Vista magically making Linux on the desktop more attractive.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Wasted money on Suse
by rm6990 on Fri 16th Sep 2005 02:22 UTC in reply to "Wasted money on Suse"
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

Ximian was got on the cheap, but they wasted a couple hundred million on Suse when they could've just rolled their own distro. Novell already has brand name , so the Suse name is pointless.

But I don't think it's a secret that this was going to be a rough ride for Novell. Maybe they'll pull through. Maybe desperation is what caused that Novell executive to make stupid comments about Vista magically making Linux on the desktop more attractive.


Obviously Novell's brand name isn't helping them at all :-P. Anyways, I read an interview once where Novell was in talks with some ISV's, and they told Novell they would not support a third distro, and that they had already decided on SUSE and Red Hat. This is why Novell aquired SUSE.

Reply Score: 1

SUSE is a premier brand of linux
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 22:16 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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and also a premier linux technology, the investors seem to agree (with me) that it is part of Novells future.

i'm not quite sure what Ximian gives them that SUSE does not, i am genuinely in the dark and would like someone to explain the need to have two brands of linux, three if you count NLD.........?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Ximian brought Red Carpet, Evolution, and mono. Unfortunately, it also brought a bunch of Gnome baggage, but I guess one person's baggage is another persons prize. :-)

Not sure where you are getting 3 brands of Linux. SLES, NLD, and SUSE Pro?

SLES and NLD go hand in hand as server and workstation, with SUSE Pro being targeted at home users. The OpenSUSE Project will bring the community into the process to initially help create SUSE Pro, and ultimately provide code for the other 2.

It's a win-win for everyone (except maybe Red Hat). People were worried that Novell would kill SuSE. Except for capitalizing the "U", I think they've done all the right things to propel SUSE to new levels.

Now about being in the dark: reach over to your right and flip on that switch... :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Wasted money on Suse
by Morty on Thu 15th Sep 2005 22:43 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Ximian was got on the cheap

Given they had no functional business plan, no(or nearly no) income generating products and owned no big assets(realestate, stocks or IP) it don't look like Novell got it cheap. Afterall they could have just taken the pieces of code Ximian had that they were interrested in, and started working with it on their own.

they wasted a couple hundred million on Suse when they could've just rolled their own distro. Novell already has brand name , so the Suse name is pointless.

Since the Novell brand is so strong, why is it that they earn much more money on the Suse brand than the Novel branded linux(NLD)?

Rolling their own rather than simply re-brand Suse would have been way more expensive, and with the limited sales NLD has that would have been a real money looser. So I'd guess that would have been even more pointless.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Wasted money on Suse
by CanuckleFrog on Thu 15th Sep 2005 23:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Wasted money on Suse"
CanuckleFrog Member since:
2005-07-29

Given they had no functional business plan, no(or nearly no) income generating products and owned no big assets(realestate, stocks or IP) it don't look like Novell got it cheap. Afterall they could have just taken the pieces of code Ximian had that they were interrested in, and started working with it on their own.

They could've done the same with Suse, instead of wasting a couple hundred million dollars.

Since the Novell brand is so strong, why is it that they earn much more money on the Suse brand than the Novel branded linux(NLD)?

Who knows what Novell's wacky branding strategy brings in. you don't. It's all open source anyway and the Suse name isn't worth anything. Everybody knows its just all Linux and GNU. At the end of the day the only thing worth any money is the ability to support random linux distro.

olling their own rather than simply re-brand Suse would have been way more expensive, and with the limited sales NLD has that would have been a real money looser. So I'd guess that would have been even more pointless.

I have no idea how you think that rolling their own would cost more than what they paid for Suse. Everything is out there for the taking for free. Hire a bunch of people that know their way around kernels and packaging and be done with it.

After this all shakes out, RedHat might be laughing their asses off because they were lucky enough to get in first, and there's just not enough of the pie to supoort more than one big player

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Wasted money on Suse
by nimble on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Wasted money on Suse"
nimble Member since:
2005-07-06

I have no idea how you think that rolling their own would cost more than what they paid for Suse. Everything is out there for the taking for free. Hire a bunch of people that know their way around kernels and packaging and be done with it.

If you do that you might get the necessary talent, but you don't get the organisation and the experience. It takes a good amount of time to get people working together in one direction and develop the necessary workflow. (And by the way: you also need people who know their way 'round X11, KDE, Gnome, gcc, networks, ...)

By buying Suse they got the Suse name, but more importantly they acquired a proven and experienced team of engineers with a track record of excellent quality products.

Reply Score: 2

Kinda like MS
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 23:12 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Sounds kind of like what drives Microsoft - being a for profit company and making decisions to keep the shareholders happy.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Kinda like MS
by CanuckleFrog on Thu 15th Sep 2005 23:19 UTC in reply to "Kinda like MS"
CanuckleFrog Member since:
2005-07-29

Haha, except Microsoft's business model actually works fantastically.

I wonder what would happen if Novell folded. Maybe RedHat would buy the Suse assets. That would be interesting.

Reply Score: 2

This is funny
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 00:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I like when little kids talk business. I makes me smile. Maybe when you kids grow up, you can be business analysts so you don't need a real job.

Reply Score: 3

RE: This is funny
by segedunum on Fri 16th Sep 2005 10:45 UTC in reply to "This is funny"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I like when little kids talk business. I makes me smile. Maybe when you kids grow up, you can be business analysts so you don't need a real job.

Since what 'analysts' come up with is, at times, no better that's a fairly mute point.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Wasted money on Suse
by Morty on Fri 16th Sep 2005 01:18 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

I have no idea how you think that rolling their own would cost more than what they paid for Suse.

I do not, but on the other hand by buying Suse they get a company generating revenue. Which they would not have if they insted had rolled their own distro. And seeing how their Suse branded products outsells their Novel branded one. Even basing it on a high quality, solid, proved and well regarded distribution, the Novel brand don't give any big benefit in the market. So if Novel had hired a bunch of people and rolled their own, they would have a even harder time in the market with an unproved distribution.

To put it simply for you, the Suse part of Novell genereates money. Money they would not generate, if they had to start from scratch and develop a product and reputation. And it would have taken time, both to develop the product and their market segment. Time Novell don't have considering the rest of their business. And the whole Suse division is still worth money, if they decide to sell it.

Reply Score: 2

DCC, LSB?
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 01:41 UTC
Anonymous
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Novell's Linuxes are being squeezed by Red Hat on one side, and by the Debian world on the other ....

It took them too long to set up the OpenSUSE community. But that was one of the their best moves yet. Now, I think they should embrace the community's desire to move to apt ... they may even need to join the DCC or at least be LSB compliant in order to survive in the enterprise Linux world of de facto Red Hat standards.

Reply Score: 0

RE: DCC, LSB?
by Dark_Knight on Sat 17th Sep 2005 07:16 UTC in reply to "DCC, LSB?"
Dark_Knight Member since:
2005-07-10

I can't recall who was first but both Novell and Red Hat offer LSB certified software which includes SUSE Linux.
As for Debian you need to read up on who's passed LSB certification as you would notice not a single Debian based distribution is LSB certified. http://www.linuxbase.org/

This is the problem with OSNews by allowing annonymous posts from people who tend to not have a clue what's relative to the article or have any real knowledge on the subject they claim to have.

Reply Score: 1

Ximian
by Anonymous Coward on Fri 16th Sep 2005 02:13 UTC
Anonymous Coward
Member since:
2005-07-06

When Novell bought Ximian, I was hoping they were shooting to make a True competitor for Exchange.

SuSE could be their Server Line of Products

NLD could be their Workstations.

...and to bridge the gap could be an enhanced version of Evolution connecting to the Novell Groupware Suite. NGS or XGS (Ximian Groupware Suite?) could be the center of the whole thing. OpenLDAP, an IMAP Server, an iCal server...maybe even a way to Sync Palm pilots through bluetooth to the server....or tie it in with a CRM Suite of their own for managing customers, call centers, and all kinds of other important facets of a business.

Gropupware is the big market that needs to be addressed. Novell is in the perfect position to leverage their products to take over...I haven't seen anyone else come close.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ximian
by Anonymous Coward on Fri 16th Sep 2005 02:21 UTC in reply to "Ximian"
Anonymous Coward Member since:
2005-07-06

I am replying to myself because my last post could be misleading, or get someone mad....

N/XGS does not exist, I am not claiming it exists, but I am saying that it SHOULD exist. It SHOULD be Novell's new cash cow. It SHOULD be the next best thing since Combining eggs and toast into one breakfat.

It SHOULD be the next network Swiss-Army Knife

*IMAP
*OpenLDAP
*CRM
*Time Clock
*Appointment Manager
*Personal/Business/Shared Calendar
*Company ATOM Bulletin Generator
*NNTP Time Server
*Shipping/Receiving Software
*PBX/VOIP/Video Conferencing Manager
*E-Fax manager
*...and so much more


It SHOULD be the Killer App that brings Netware back into the Lime Light.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ximian
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 14:59 UTC in reply to "Ximian"
Anonymous Member since:
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"When Novell bought Ximian, I was hoping they were shooting to make a True competitor for Exchange."

As a Novell employee, I'd have to say you hit the nail on the head. Check out www.hula-project.org

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Ximian
by segedunum on Fri 16th Sep 2005 19:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Ximian"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

As a Novell employee, I'd have to say you hit the nail on the head. Check out www.hula-project.org

As a Novell employee you haven't got a clue what Hula is. It is most certainly not an Exchange replacement, and in order to make Hula relevant and interesting for people it has wisely stayed away from the corporate groupworking stuff which has been the death knell of many before it.

Reply Score: 1

To make it easy for you
by rm6990 on Fri 16th Sep 2005 02:37 UTC
rm6990
Member since:
2005-07-04

I have no idea how you think that rolling their own would cost more than what they paid for Suse. Everything is out there for the taking for free. Hire a bunch of people that know their way around kernels and packaging and be done with it.

First of all, Ximian gave them some much needed management tools (Red Carpet which has now become Zenworks). As for SUSE, now wouldn't it be nice if any company could compile a bunch of open source software and sustain a multi-billion dollar company on it ;) . Red Hat and Novell both rely on ISVs and IHVs to sustain their business. A Novell executive was quoted once as saying that the major ISV's had made it very clear to Novell that they were NOT interested in supporting a Novell Linux, as they already supported SUSE and Red Hat. Without ISV's, any Linux company is nothing.

Look at how hard Mandriva is having it right now with almost no ISV's.

So aquiring SUSE was a necessity IMHO. Without ISV's and IHV's, any Linux company is NOTHING. Why do you think the Debian Core Consortium came into existence?

Reply Score: 1

Novell
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 03:31 UTC
Anonymous
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I think Novell is on the right track with their products. Slowly they are merging into their own. NLD makes great for a workstation at work. Plugs into the outlook server nice and easy. Set a couple of fields and I got email and calander events!

Suse I like but I dont get some of their dep checking. I did a minimal install ( just wanted text log in and no X...yet kde base was still install :/ )

So to me thats unwanted fluff. Sure I could uninstall it but ....ehh..i said I didn't wanty any X (which would mena DE's too a human train of thought!)

I think novell's biggest issue is advertising and getting their product in the door.

Reply Score: 0

Suse is a dead brand
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 03:39 UTC
Anonymous
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Redhat and Ubuntu are the only brands with momentum in the linux market. How many Ubuntu users are going to switch to OpenSuse? 0 How many RHEL customers are moving to NLD? 0

Redhat is not losing much sleep, they know all they have to do is wait it out.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Suse is a dead brand
by joelito_pr on Fri 16th Sep 2005 04:05 UTC in reply to "Suse is a dead brand"
joelito_pr Member since:
2005-07-07

Well, ubuntu is a newcomer so I think it's adoption in the enterprise will take some time. I say this being an Ubuntu user myself. But in the enterprise the best known distros are the ones that have been around longer than Ubuntu, SuSE included.

BTW, In universities the only one I know to support Ubuntu is the state university (UPR), all the other local universities either support other older distros or don't support linux at all.

Reply Score: 1

Novell
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 04:33 UTC
Anonymous
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I reckon the honeymoon of the Ximian and Suse purchases will end soon and reality will set in with the realization that hype can only sustain a company for so long....

Reply Score: 0

RE: Novell
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:08 UTC in reply to "Novell"
Anonymous Member since:
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"I reckon the honeymoon of the Ximian and Suse purchases will end soon and reality will set in with the realization that hype can only sustain a company for so long...."

If the honeymoon for Novell and their venture into open source is indeed over... So is the "feel good" factor for others considering open source as a commercial avenue.

IF you are a supporter of open source software....
You need to speak with you wallet rather than your voice.

A bunch of lip is one thing, cash pays the bills.

Reply Score: 0

Huh?
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:12 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Where is written that Novell going down the drain? Problem is here that investors don't see return NOW, so they want to do about it. It is, however, question of PR and management.

And my pick is that someone is involved in this anti-hype. I haven't seen any OFFICIAL statements from investors, just rumors "that they want to do something about current situation".

And my pick is that is only very bad nasty PR from one small company in Redmond...Which name escapes my mind for now.

Ok, it was said with tonique in cheeck, but seriously, I don't see nothing more, nothing less just unsubstansial rumors which have been countless in the case of IBM or Redhat.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Huh?
by TBPrince on Fri 16th Sep 2005 16:37 UTC in reply to "Huh?"
TBPrince Member since:
2005-07-06

Where is written that Novell going down the drain?

Right. I can't understand why people keep saying Novell is dying. Thing is simple: revenues are lowering and investors are buzzing because they want a certain level of revenue from their investment.

However, revenues could just be decreasing because of higher investments, not just because a company is dying. Novell management aims to do what's better for Novell while investors aim to maximize their returns.

We might question if Novell is heading towards the right way but I can't see why we should suppose it is dying...

Reply Score: 1

Where's the money to be made?
by CanuckleFrog on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:13 UTC
CanuckleFrog
Member since:
2005-07-29

I don't think the Suse brand name does much for Novell. Maybe a little bit in Europe, but I don't think Novell is counting their chickens on the Suse brand name for the future.

To me, it seems that Novell blew it back in the mid 90s when it missed the boat on Linux. Wasn't that Ransom Love guy working for Novell and trying to convince them that Linux was the future? But now Novell is a company in transition, trying to hang on to its NetWare image but hoping that Linux will be the medium for the transition.

RedHat, on the other hand has always been a linux company, got in early, the brand name is Linux to many people, got the support of the big ISVs like Oracle first, and doesn't have these transition pains.

But my real question is where is the money to be made on Linux. But it looks like Novell is going to have to slim down a lot if they're going to try and make it with just services and support. And I think that Novell is going to be in trouble if they try and follow the RedHat model of everything is open source. There's nothing wrong with putting some proprietary bits on top of the stack.

I just don't see with IBM, RedHat, and Sun in this game how they can make a go at it with just support. Yeah, large companies are always going to want support contracts, but to the medium-sized and small company if the software does what it's supposed to and with the plethora of information on the internet the whole support game seems like a house of cards.

Of course, I'm armchair analayzing it like everybody else here, but with this news, and even before it was obvious that this was going to be a tough road ahead for Novell.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Where's the money to be made?
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:30 UTC in reply to "Where's the money to be made?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"But my real question is where is the money to be made on Linux."

Good question, and one being asked by investors at the moment. The moment Linux and open source prove to be a poor investment and unprofitable, all commercial push will die on the vine.

I don't think we have gotten to this point yet, however we are getting very close to people rendering judgement.

Talking about all the greatest NEW things about Linux distro's might be great. Unfortunately, it's not about talk.

Reply Score: 0

Ubuntu must drive these guys crazy
by CanuckleFrog on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:18 UTC
CanuckleFrog
Member since:
2005-07-29

With the recent announcement that the next Ubuntu version is going to be supported for 5 years, this must drive RedHat absolutely nuts when thinking about making any money off the desktop - same with Novell.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Ubuntu, Debian, etc. never will accepted by enterprises. This things are very funny toys for home or amateur users, small companies, but IMHO the big companies always will use strong band names: RedHat, Novell, Mandriva, etc.

Reply Score: 0

cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

Well, the project for the implementation of 14000 Linux desktops in the city of Munich will use Debian. Public sector, not a big company, but still a large deployment.

See this <a href="http://www.muenchen.de/Rathaus/dir/limux/publikationen/news_archiv/... (in german)

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Munich will use Debian. And IMHO it is a mostly political decision, not technical. Wait 2-3 years after initiation...

Reply Score: 0

re:RE: Novell
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:21 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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A bunch of lip is one thing, cash pays the bills.

Yes,i'm writing this on SuSE 9.3 which is a superb distro,maybe not the fastest but certainly one with the most propietary apps.This is my third paid SuSE professional box.How the things look at the moment i'm quite sure i will buy another one (SuSE 10).

netpython.

Reply Score: 0

What does that LEAVE?
by DigitalAxis on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:29 UTC
DigitalAxis
Member since:
2005-08-28

All of that sounds like great ways to slim down the company, except... if the stockholder wants them to disband their Netware people, trim their R&D people, divest their assets, and all that, what does that leave? They recommend increasingly pursuing Linux and Open Source software. But... wouldn't that basically turn Novell into just a reseller?

Right now they seem to be more than just a repackager of Open Source software, which free organizations like Debian and Gentoo and Canonical do so well. It almost sounds like the shareholders don't want Novell to be Novell any more.

Reply Score: 1

RE: What does that LEAVE?
by CanuckleFrog on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:45 UTC in reply to "What does that LEAVE?"
CanuckleFrog Member since:
2005-07-29

Right now they seem to be more than just a repackager of Open Source software, which free organizations like Debian and Gentoo and Canonical do so well.

The thing is that model is never going to cut it for an organization like Novell. Novell has to have some value-added of their own that is distinct from services/support.

Reply Score: 1

RE: What does that LEAVE?
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 10:24 UTC in reply to "What does that LEAVE?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Right now they seem to be more than just a repackager of Open Source software, which free organizations like Debian and Gentoo and Canonical do so well. It almost sounds like the shareholders don't want Novell to be Novell any more"

Shareholders are not a unity. In a situation like this, the cannier investors will long ago have written off their investment and they'll just be interested in getting back whatever they can by way of cash extraction, including grabbing cash balances. They won't care whether there is anything left at all afterwards. It's like watching hyenas in action.

The city of Munich opting for Debian was writing on the wall in a way. It suggests that RedHat/Novell + men in suits + expensive support contracts is exactly the same as Microosft + men in suits + expensive support contracts. For some outfits, Debian-based + roll yer own is perhaps a more attractive proposition. For a start, you are not importing the cost of running a couple of company jets and thousands of expense tabs.

Reply Score: 0

Problems of Novell
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 06:52 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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IMHO the problem of Novell is the problem of linux. Ximian is a very good company, especially the mono project, but this is Gnome centric. SuSE is also is a very good linux distro, but this is very KDE (and QT) centric. And Novell can't merge this two lines.
The other problem is the basic problem of FOSS software: if you have a programmers, you must pay to this programmers from our work. But if you give your product for free, you lose money and you will go out of business, except if you have another source of profit (hardware, *nix based services, commercial software, etc). But IMHO in long term the hardware business will reduce, because the x86-based solutions will cut out the SUN, IBM, etc servers, and the services are not enought to give profit for survive.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Ubuntu must drive these guys crazy
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 14:06 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Munich will use Debian. And IMHO it is a mostly political decision, not technical. Wait 2-3 years after initiation...

That's new i thought they would use SuSE?

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Anonymous Member since:
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"That's new i thought they would use SuSE?"

So did Novell.

Reply Score: 0

CanuckleFrog Member since:
2005-07-29

That's new i thought they would use SuSE?

Yeah, but now Suse is owned by an American company.

Oh, by the way, the Munich rollout has been delayed once again. Ahh..those pesky political issues once again interfering with technical decisions.

Reply Score: 1

Dark Clouds Hovering
by segedunum on Fri 16th Sep 2005 15:47 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

I find Novell's attitude and lax approach to how they're going about things pretty shocking, but unfortunately very typical. Messman (appropriate name) is your typical non-IT CEO, or at least, one who cannot think about the nature of Novell's business in an objective and logical way. Absolutely no clue what direction in which to steer the company, absolutely no clue on what will or will not work, full of analyst buzzwords like 'identity management' and allowing the company to be split and divided by political and technical fall-outs. It's a recipe for disaster, no business can survive that and it needs to be sorted out fast. Businesses need leadership, and if things go wrong you can invariably point the finger at the top.

They're proudly proclaiming that they're moving everyone to a Linux-based desktop, but at the same time they're saying they're not replacing Windows. Well, they quite clearly are, and without an adequate replacement for Windows and the ability to attract ISV and third-party software in the medium to long-term their migration is going to end up being one massive failure. Either they'll go back to Windows or go out of business (whichever comes first) as it stands. Novell does not seem to realise they cannot do this by halves. They need to address the issues for their desktop Linux to become a Windows replacement (ISV support, development tools, installation etc.) or they just shouldn't bother.

Another source of confusion is this both-source strategy crap. At least Red Hat know exactly where they are. They use 100% open sourced software, GPL where possible, and they're making their money from selling support for that software and customers investing in that software's development. What Novell need to be doing is following that strategy, because all of the software that brings in their income is dwindling and not creating any interest. Get an open source project going for Groupwise, and get people using the software - even if at times that means for nothing.

And for goodness sake, let people know who you are. If you're Novell, say Novell, as opposed to Suse (sponsored by Novell, a Novell business etc). And no, the name doesn't make any difference as long as the distro and infrastructure is there.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Dark Clouds Hovering
by CanuckleFrog on Fri 16th Sep 2005 17:47 UTC in reply to "Dark Clouds Hovering"
CanuckleFrog Member since:
2005-07-29

Another source of confusion is this both-source strategy crap. At least Red Hat know exactly where they are. They use 100% open sourced software, GPL where possible, and they're making their money from selling support for that software and customers investing in that software's development. What Novell need to be doing is following that strategy, because all of the software that brings in their income is dwindling and not creating any interest.

Novell is doomed if they follow the RedHat model, and most likely they won't.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Dark Clouds Hovering
by segedunum on Fri 16th Sep 2005 17:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Dark Clouds Hovering"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Novell is doomed if they follow the RedHat model, and most likely they won't.

They already have, and what's worse is they have half followed it and then dithered about what they're going to do about their existing proprietary products. I don't see Red Hat making any less money or relinquishing their number one Linux vendor spot because of the model they have. It's a successful one, and one that's essential for survival in the open source world.

Rule number one in any line of business - work out what you're about in clear and simple terms, get rid of the confusion, stick with it and fllow it through. All Novell have done is buy Suse and Ximian, create a certain amount of buzz, fund some open source software they don't have a clue about and won't actually use and assume everything will be fine. What they failed to realise was that they were going to have to change their business, practices and models in order to make an aquisition like Suse work. That's the way aquisitions work.

Reply Score: 1

Worry
by Smartpatrol on Fri 16th Sep 2005 16:32 UTC
Smartpatrol
Member since:
2005-07-06

Most of the ramblings coming from Novell recently seem to be generated by a company that has no idea where its going. Poor leadership decisions ooze out of that company like barf from a boot tread when stepped on. They do not seem serious and i honestly believe that they thought that buying Suse would magically make them competitive again. Novell needs smarts in the higher ups they need to take the often looked over best features of Netware like NDS and file sharing and integrate it into Suse, maintian Windows compatibility, keep the code closed and sell it as a network directory service platform(for a resonable price this time...Netware was good but not that good)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Ximian
by Morty on Fri 16th Sep 2005 19:14 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

"When Novell bought Ximian, I was hoping they were shooting to make a True competitor for Exchange."

As a Novell employee, I'd have to say you hit the nail on the head. Check out www.hula-project.org


But that does not make any sense, since the code which became hula was Novell code to begin with. The only connection are that you now have some ex-ximian employees working with it.

Reply Score: 1

Some of you have it backwards
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 22:55 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Quite honestly, Suse was better off without Novell, not the other way around. Suse was already one of the most popular distros before Novell came along. Ubuntu, in the realm of those who refuse to pay for Linux, is the flavor of the week.

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Anonymous
Member since:
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Kubuntu doesn't count.

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RE: This is funny
by Anonymous on Fri 16th Sep 2005 22:59 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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"I like when little kids talk business. I makes me smile. Maybe when you kids grow up, you can be business analysts so you don't need a real job.

Since what 'analysts' come up with is, at times, no better that's a fairly mute point."

Or more to the point, people in this forum don't know what the hell they're talking about most of the time, but neither do the analysts, the only difference being people here don't get paid to post their groundless thoughts, they do it for the sake of attention. The analysts get paid for guessing, flipping a coin or consulting their 8 ball.

Reply Score: 0