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Sad thing is they have always been cooler, it took the iPod to get people to look at them for some reason.

Funny comment! Working off the the "style and aesthetics" aspect of the Macs.

If you were, ummm..., serious in your comment, it is also funny, so it works on two levels!

It's nice to be able to have something a technician can troubleshoot. A pretty kernel panic tells me nothing, but Windows' STOP errors and crash dump files tell me everything in the world about what happened.

Mac's still log all the data, they just don't dump it to the screen like Windows does. Seeing as XP will reboot automatically by default anyway, the screen dump is kinda useless.

Eh, typically all a Windows BSOD tells you is:

"Hey! Something screwed up, it might have had something to do with this crytically-named .VXD file. Oh, here's a numerical error code - have fun looking it up on Google."

I think we can move on from Win9x pcs now. The 2000/xp debug messages are usefull. And generally you have more luck heading over to the Microsoft website.
support.microsoft.com.

So maybe the screen should say something like:

CRITICAL ERROR!
Your system has crashed due to a critical system error. Please reboot your computer by holding the power button until it restarts.

Please call tech support at 1-800-555-0624 and let us know about this. We will need the following information:
(DATA DUMP)

Then you'll get charged $50 for lodging a bug report

Luckily, OS X also generates crash dump files if the kernel panics.

Luckily, OS X also generates crash dump files if the kernel panics.

Yep. Not only that, but there is actual information about them (unlike for windows) :

"When Things Go Wrong: Debugging the Kernel"
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelPr...

"TN2118 Kernel core dumps"
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2004/tn2118.html

"TN2063 Understanding and debugging kernel panics"
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2063.html

Console.app tells you everything, and it's just a convenient reader for .log files stored on the HD, so you can still get the information if the system won't boot, like from the terminal.app on the install DVD. Why trouble people with meaninglessly technical error messages? I know the end user isn't meant to see BSODs, but come on, there's wishful thinking and then there's insane delirium.

Honestly, who didn't think the first time their computer reported an illegal operation that it had something to do with actual laws? Windows errors are overly technical (meaningless error codes), described with ambiguous jargon (illegal operation), or condescending in a way that makes them technically inaccurate or outright lies (this volume cannot be quick formatted).

In OS X, the procedural information (restart your computer) appears on the screen. The technical information (backtraces and whatnot) appears in Console.app. Seems like a perfect system to me. If you're any kind of qualified to fix the problem, you'll have no trouble finding out what it was.

Sure. Wouldn't it be nice that languages were self-debugging and able to automagically fix algorithm design, on-the-fly. While we're at it the language is so smart that it presets all bounds checks for you without even having to know.

How about it just interfaces with your mind and cleans it up?

<blockquote>
While we're at it the language is so smart that it presets all bounds checks for you without even having to know.
</blockquote>
Python?

I've only had one kernel panic in 5 yrs of Linux - probably just lucky - when my cpu fan died unnoticed.

Linux (SuSE at the time) just popped up a terminal, and a bit like HAL in 2001, said:

Kernel Panic
System going down now
Kernel Panic
Kernel
Ker.........

And died. When I removed the side of the case after hasty disconnection, the Heatsink was still too hot to touch. Two hours later it booted up normally - the processor died 8 months later, though.

Seeing the kernel panic text is kinda rare but I've had the system in an unusable state countless times. When the screen or the keyboard systems dies you you have to reset .

Counting such errors, I consider my Linux systems less stable than my Windows XP.

>> Counting such errors, I consider my Linux systems less stable than my Windows XP.
That's been my take on Linux and OS X as well. I've rarely ever gotten a BSOD in XP unless I was doing something stupid (like running a half win-16 program while multitasking multiple win32 apps, trying to use a legacy SCSI controller like a future domain, bad RAM, etc)

While on Linux, it is AMAZING how completely unusable you can get the machine - and still not have it actually crash... Most common cause of course being media playback.

OSX though - I see Kernel panics a LOT... though interestingly my Dellmac (Dellmac? Sounds Tok'rah) Hackintosh has yet to have one, while the real Apple Mac (G4 laptop) has been the most buggy, unstable piece of junk from day one... What was that I was saying about Apple needing to pack it in on selling hardware?

The problem with OSX kernel panics is that they really are a reason to panic!!! since it 99% of the time means it's a hardware problem; software problems in OSX just bring OSX to a dead stop, usually with the spinning beach ball of death, but NOT to a kernel panic.

In Linux when a desktop machine comes to a dead stop, it's usually X going mental. Sometimes control+alt.+backspace kills/restarts X, however, if X is seriously lost, that key combo won't work since X drives the keyboard as well.

"In Linux when a desktop machine comes to a dead stop, it's usually X going mental. Sometimes control+alt.+backspace kills/restarts X, however, if X is seriously lost, that key combo won't work since X drives the keyboard as well."

At least in those situations, you can log in via ssh from another machine and kill the offending processes. As long as nothing too awful has happened of course!

and what if you do not have a network at home?

ok, so these days its unlikely that a linux user do not have a network at home. and i guess it gives me yet another reason to have a 770 at hand as a kind of crash recovery device

and that is why ctrl+alt+delete was at one time a hardware interrupt, interpeted by the bios only.

these days, forget it. anything and everything have some reason to override that keyboard combo...

hmm, i know there are some sysrq combos in linux, but never botherd to realy check them out. do these bypass X, and enable one to bring up a cli so that one can kill and restart it?

i guess this is the main issue people have with X, that its kinda like a os inside the os. it would be nice if someone or some group could be botherd to create a X-like that had the support of the network protocol but that didnt run like some os inside the os.

if the X-like died, one could just restart it and your entire desktop would be recoverd. if X dies, you have to restart every program your running inside it, unless its running on some remote server or similar.

ie, make a better X

I had my first kernel panic in OS X this week. I did some research then called Apple Support.

According to both sources, a kernel panic is usually indicative of a SOFTWARE problem, not a hardware problem (*although hardware problems can definitely cause them too). When software modifies system files, you use bad haxies, etc, these are all reasons for a kernel panic.

If you want to test it, boot up holding down the Shift key and see if you still have problems. Or boot up with "D" for diagnostics.

Edited 2006-09-14 12:11

"When software modifies system files, you use bad haxies, etc, these are all reasons for a kernel panic."

Haxies are not a reason for a kernel panic. They load at runtime for applications not run as root, i.e. most applications people run. The worst they can do is crash a given application. Except in the case of a severe design flaw in MacOS X, there is no possibility of a haxie interfacing with kernel space.

Amen to that on the media playback. That's been the number one cause of disaster for me since ndiswrapper matured enough to play nice with my wifi card. (Well, also since I gave up trying to get my TV-Out to work in X.) Usually WMV files, surprisingly enough.

To this day I keep sshd running so I can whip out my gf's laptop and PuTTY* my way to a clean(ish) shutdown.

Edit: well, rxvt-cygwin my way lately. PuTTY can be a bit crap at keeping connections up

Edited 2006-09-14 13:53

I noticed that the "Screen of Death" in Vista now has a passing resemblance to OS X's... No more BSoD, just a SoD :-) ... Actually (after posting this) I thought I should try and find a screen image of the new SoD, but couldn't, maybe I dreamt it...


Maybe you're thinking about the XBOX. Vista retains the blue screen for most of its stop errors.

It was a while ago, but I remember reading somewhere that Vista (LH back then) had a red SOD and the old BSOD, depending on the kind of panic it was going through.

It was a while ago, but I remember reading somewhere that Vista (LH back then) had a red SOD and the old BSOD, depending on the kind of panic it was going through.

This actually isn't unique to Vista, though in some versions of NT I believe they were black. The black/red screens are for boot errors.

1. Destroying my system will never happen of course because the reason for the error was the newly installed application

Many firewalls and other security software install kernel mode software. This can at the very least cause data corruption. XP and other versions of Windows will halt under similar circumstances.

2. The quicker than XP dump file creation process was so quick that anyone will not be able to write down the error message, to lets say to give it to a support technician.

The data from crash dumps can be accessed in Vista via the "Solutions to Problems" applet. You can view and send the data to MS' Online Crash Analysis (OCA) site with this tool. You can also access the dump files directly in the file system (as in other versions of NT) -- Minidumps are located in %systemroot%Minidump and a full dump is located in %systemroot% with the name Memory.dmp. There's no need to write the info down, but if so, you can go to Start | Right-click (My) Computer | Properties | Advanced System Properties | Startup and Recovery Settings | Uncheck "Automatically restart". This is checked by default in XP and later so they restart automatically in the event of a STOP error since most people wouldn't know what to do with them and the OCA functionality lets them send the necessary info to MS.

3. The BSOD says it will prevent hardware damage but restart the system instead of shutting it down, thus exposing the system to the same harmful influence previously discovered again

Restarting the system isn't likely to be harmful. In the majority of cases, bad kernel mode software would be the cause of such errors, and the OS would halt again if similar issues occured. The primary reason for halting the OS is to ensure data integrity.

4. BSOD message cannot be viewed during windows safe boot process.

This isn't true. As stated above, the files are stored and the info is available via Solutions to Problems. The info is also available via the system event log.

Also, in XP SP2 and up, you can tap F8 to get the boot menu, and choose Disable automatic restart on system failure. This will allow you to read the STOP error easily and the system will halt instead of reboot.

"4. BSOD message cannot be viewed during windows safe boot process.

This isn't true. As stated above, the files are stored and the info is available via Solutions to Problems. The info is also available via the system event log."

As I said above you cannot boot even in safe mode, let alone read the crahs dump files.

I advise you to REALLY test this instead of imagining things you like to believe. All I have said before are simply facts that I have got from (real world) vista RC1 with a simple application installed (Zone Alarm Security Sweet).

The only solution to get out of this disaster is to put the vista DVD and then use the "system restore point" to a point of time earlier than that when I installed the incompatible application.

If you cannot boot into safe mode, there are still other options, such as loading the recovery environment and accessing the dump files. Absent hardware issues (e.g., harddrive failure), you are not blocked from accessing the crash data.

Again, Zone Alarm and similar tools aren't simple applications. They install kernel mode software. If that software is buggy or incompatible, the OS has to halt to ensure system integrity. This is not unique to Vista. The only exception is if the Administrator or Microsoft blocks the particular problem application and prevents it from installing, in which case you'll get a dialog telling you that the app was blocked.

"The first time I say a Mac OS X GSOD was when I plugged in a pysically damaged USB flash pen.

When the same pen was plugged into Windows XP, it just popped up a baloon message saying the USB device was malfunctioning. "

And exactly for that reason I love linux and MacOSX, because It will not let you start your day on a malfunctioning hardware and then cry all that day long on your assay or buisness file you've made which is gone for good in that trashable USB flash pen.

If you cannot understand it then imagine a car that would allows you to drive it with a 1% functional brakes, do you like this kind of unsafe ride?!

sorry, but your response sounds like a nonsense. what kind of fool whould like to get SOD instead of notice about malfunctioning hardware with further troubleshooting information?

Er ... So let me get this straight

XP, tells you that the device is malfunctioning.
MacOSX crashes in a heap.

So .. MacoSX is better?

I didn't believe in the Reality Distortion Field, until I read your post. Thanks for providing irrefutable proof of its existence.

If you cannot understand it then imagine a car that would allows you to drive it with a 1% functional brakes, do you like this kind of unsafe ride?!

XP popped up an error message stating that the USB pen was malfunctioning, so allow me to correct your analogy.

If your car had 1% functional brakes, would you rather it flashed a warning light on the dashboard (XP), or explode when you put the key in the ignition (MacOSX)?

That behavor that you discribed is right but not the only one you get as I have seen kernel panics with total freeze, where you cannot pass any commands or arguments.

When next/open step gets a kernel panic, you just get a small white rectangular box with writing in it with words to the effect "kernel panic <some error message, probably about page faults - possibly register dumps> press r to reboot c to continue". Sometimes the wording gives other options. IIRC the Jaguar Kernel panic screen is a slightly more graphical version of this exact screen though ;-)

I don't understand your comment... are you saying that Mac OS X saves a crash dump, but in Windows and Linux you have to view logs? I don't use Linux, but Windows saves crash dumps.

It could be an overheated network chipset or a dying one, unless your OS code is corrupt.

It's just kind of ironic that the Mac one has been well designed when just about no one ever sees it.

I switched to OS X in 2002 and I've not seen the thing once.

Seen one three times in one day while running nothing but iTunes through an Airport Express network widget. I was especially annoyed because I was painting the house and didn't want to touch my Mac keyboard in case I got marks on it.

Strangely enough, my XP box runs three web servers, a wodge of Java tools and a DVD/Video Editing suite. Has not crashed once in two years; but the keyboard has enough crumbs in it to make a family-sized packet of McVities Digestives.

Edited 2006-09-14 14:46