Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 15th Nov 2006 23:04 UTC
Microsoft It seems Microsoft has released the long awaited Windows Vista to a selection of its larger customers. If you're a Microsoft Volume License customer, you can now download Vista from the MVLS Volume Licensing site. Since around 10am (GMT) this morning, Vista has been properly released into the wild via MVLS - but no news yet as to when it will be available to the developer-centric MSDN community. The Inq also gives a rundown of what Aero-capable video cards you can buy if you have a machine that lacks AGP or PCIe slots. Meanwhile, the EU is threatening to fine Microsoft again.
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Uhhhhhhhhh
by tomcat on Wed 15th Nov 2006 23:26 UTC
tomcat
Member since:
2006-01-06

In 2004, the Commission found Microsoft had abused its market dominance in audiovisual software players and office servers. It forced the U.S. firm to strip out Windows Media Player from its ubiquitous operating system.

Which near ZERO people actually bought, according to press sources. So how, exactly, has this Commission been even the slightest amount effective in promoting competition?

Reply Score: 4

RE: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Mellin on Wed 15th Nov 2006 23:39 UTC in reply to "Uhhhhhhhhh"
Mellin Member since:
2005-07-06

it's difficult to buy something that no computer store sells and computer manufacturers doesn't want you to buy or are forced* by microsoft to not sell


*just guessing!

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by NotParker on Thu 16th Nov 2006 02:23 UTC in reply to "RE: Uhhhhhhhhh"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

it's difficult to buy something that no computer store sells and computer manufacturers doesn't want you to buy or are forced* by microsoft to not sell

The "N" version has been available on the Volume Licensing site for a long time.

But there is no demand.

No customer says: "Sell me the crippled copy of XP please."

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by brewmastre on Thu 16th Nov 2006 03:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
brewmastre Member since:
2006-08-01

"No customer says: "Sell me the crippled copy of XP please.""

Unfortunately with the pricing of Vista, almost everybody is going to be buying the crippled version, just because they can't afford anything better. It's getting kinda sad when a new low-end Dell is cheaper to buy than a full-featured copy of Vista to run on it.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by gonzo on Thu 16th Nov 2006 04:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

It's getting kinda sad when a new low-end Dell is cheaper to buy than a full-featured copy of Vista to run on it.

If you don't think it's worth the price, simply don't buy it. I'll pay for Vista (and I'd pay for (new) MacOS X if I was Mac user), I think those systems are worth the money.

On the other hand, I wouldn't run Linux as my (home) desktop OS, even if I was getting paid to do it.

(This is not to start a flamewar, it is just how I evaluate those (desktop) systems).

Edited 2006-11-16 04:24

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Isolationist on Thu 16th Nov 2006 11:30 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Isolationist Member since:
2006-05-28

"On the other hand, I wouldn't run Linux as my (home) desktop OS, even if I was getting paid to do it.

(This is not to start a flamewar, it is just how I evaluate those (desktop) systems). "

If you are going to make such comments then you should at least explain how you have evaluated those systems to arrive at such a conclusion. I so hate it when people are out to start a flame war, but think it is acceptable to add "(This is not to start a flame war)" at the end of their posting, when it so obviously is!

Edited 2006-11-16 11:32

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by brewmastre on Thu 16th Nov 2006 13:07 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
brewmastre Member since:
2006-08-01

I personally don't care what OS anybody uses. I have six computers at home, I know thats probably too many, but I have different uses for all of them. On those six machines I am running 1 Linux, 2 Windows, 3 Mac OS X. The reason that I think Vista is too expensive, is because it would cost me $399 for Ultimate. Or I could go buy the new version of OSX when it comes out which doesn't come in multiple flavors. Apple doesn't sell a crippled version of OSX. A single copy of OSX is $129 and five licenses is $199. Regardless of which has more features, OSX or Vista, you can't honestly tell me that its right that I can buy licenes to install OSX on 10 machines for same price it would cost me to install Vista on one. I'm not trying to say that OSX is better than Vista, I really don't care, as long as they do they're job (which is whatever I want them to do), but I do care about how much money I have to shell out.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by NotParker on Thu 16th Nov 2006 07:19 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by leech on Thu 16th Nov 2006 12:04 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
leech Member since:
2006-01-10

I do believe he said FULL-FEATURED. Vista Home Premium is anything but.

By the way, I was just thinking, the fact that the Playstation 3 and Windows Vista are being released on the same day (at least to the MSDN developers) is kind of odd. Hmm, 600 for the PS3 which you can install Linux on, or 500 for Vista Ultimate. I think I'd rather have the PS3 myself.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[6]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by NotParker on Thu 16th Nov 2006 19:33 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Moulinneuf on Thu 16th Nov 2006 12:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

How about you find the same GNU/Linux deal/price on the same hardware from the same vendor. Or even a Multi-Boot ( Vista + any GNU/Linux ) deal/price on the same hardware from the same vendor.

Vista I dont mind , paying a little more I dont mind , its the law breaking , stiffling of competition and lack of integration and defaul install proposal that I mind.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Beta on Thu 16th Nov 2006 13:11 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Beta Member since:
2005-07-06

Considering Dell will let you get a rebate if you don't wish to run Windows on the machine, ~$400 for a Linux desktop is a very good deal.

This coming from an OSS cultist ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Moulinneuf on Thu 16th Nov 2006 13:59 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"Considering Dell will let you get a rebate if you don't wish to run Windows on the machine"

Tell that to all those who tried ordering from dell with no OS ...

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&...

Select my operating System :

1) Genuine Windows« XP Professional [add $50 or $1/month1]
Qualifies for an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista Business

2) Genuine Windows« XP Media Center, Ext USB TV Tuner, Remote [Included in Price] Watch & record live TV from your Media Center PC!

Sorry I dont see Option 3 ) No OS

Sorry I dotn see option 4 ) Get soemthing else.

"OSS cultist ;) "

I always knew that OSS was the trouble.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[8]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by NotParker on Thu 16th Nov 2006 19:37 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
v RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by NotParker on Thu 16th Nov 2006 19:28 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
RE[3]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Matzon on Thu 16th Nov 2006 06:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Matzon Member since:
2005-07-06

When buying from dell or other similar, you don't get an option of purchasing the N option.
If I could have bought a copy of Windows XP, I would have bought the N edition. Sadly no one wanted to sell it to me.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Clinton on Thu 16th Nov 2006 07:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Clinton Member since:
2005-07-05

And that right there is the problem. There is no technical reason whatsoever why Microsoft can't make Windows without MSN tied to Outlook Express, IE tied to the OS, and sans Windows Media player.

If the various governments who have sued and/or penalized Microsoft would actually force them to decouple all this junk, then the field would be open for more players, but as long as OEMs are still pushing the bundled versions of the software, ma and pa are going to continue to use IE, read email in OE, and watch videos on crappy Windows Media Player.

I don't think the EU really wants to solve anything. If they do, they are certainly going about it the wrong way.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by flanque on Thu 16th Nov 2006 10:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Uhhhhhhhhh"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

There's always going to be people who will "die for the cause" on both sides. The bottom line here is that despite what the EU and others believe people are provided with choice of applications in Windows.

I have the regular Windows XP Professional edition and choose to use Firefox over IE as my primary browser, I choose to use Winamp over WMP as my primary audio player, I choose to use Gmail as my email management "program", I choose Perfect Disk as my defragmentation utility and I choose to use Textpad as my replacement for Notepad. I also choose to use replacements for XP's built in CD burning, compressed files and graphics editing.

There is plenty of choice for Windows users if they so choose to take advantage of it. If some still don't believe they're given choice, then they certainly can choose to use Linux.

As for not being given the choice to get Linux machines or a copy of "Windows N" from Dell, HP or alike they can certainly choose to purchase a PC from another reputable supplier. Many offer extended warranties and to be honest my experience is that it's many of these local PC suppliers that offer superior service over the larger corporations like the above mentioned. For them the customer is their life blood, rather than a number in some user registration database.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Terracotta on Thu 16th Nov 2006 08:54 UTC in reply to "Uhhhhhhhhh"
Terracotta Member since:
2005-08-15

uhhhhhh, I would buy it if:
I'd use windows
The price would be lower than the non 'N'-version. Which it is not.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Marcellus on Thu 16th Nov 2006 11:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

And it is same price because you can download the media player and get a normal Windows XP if you want. For free.
Putting N as cheaper in that case would be stupid from a business point of view.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Uhhhhhhhhh
by dylansmrjones on Thu 16th Nov 2006 10:22 UTC in reply to "Uhhhhhhhhh"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Pretty much nobody knows about XP N, and nobody sells the version or advertises it. So there you have the reason.

_If_ I am to update to Vista it will be Vista Business N. However, I doubt I'll upgrade from Win2K3 Server, since it works just fine for me.

However, tomcat, I agree that the Commission (or the Politbureau, as it _should_ be called) has been completely ineffective in promoting competition. And I have a hard time seeing the fairness in the behaviour of the EUSSR Politbureau.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Marcellus on Thu 16th Nov 2006 11:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

It is being sold and advertised.
I see it in every local store here that sells Windows, as well as in online stores.
It's just that noone wants the N version.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by dylansmrjones on Thu 16th Nov 2006 11:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Not in Denmark though. Haven't seen a single place where the N-version is advertised, and finding online shops selling it is equally difficult.

However - the point is not whether Mr. Average Joe wants it. The point is that we have the option. In Denmark we call it "Free Choice". Use it or don't - but please... give us the choice.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Tyr. on Thu 16th Nov 2006 12:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Tyr. Member since:
2005-07-06

However - the point is not whether Mr. Average Joe wants it. The point is that we have the option. In Denmark we call it "Free Choice". Use it or don't - but please... give us the choice.

Exactly. Plus it's not like the end user was the target for this version, but rather companies (for the corporate desktop) and especially OEMs (so they could bundle other media players). Unfortunately it arrived largely too late for these groups, both already having invested in upgrading by that time.

I haven't seen the N-version in Belgian shops either.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by eMagius on Thu 16th Nov 2006 16:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
eMagius Member since:
2005-07-06

I haven't seen the N-version in Belgian shops either.

If there's no demand for it, it won't be stocked. Ask your store owners for it and they'll stock it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by dylansmrjones on Fri 17th Nov 2006 03:39 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

And how will there be a demand for it if people don't know the product exists? ;)

No knowledge? No demand? Though so.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by NotParker on Thu 16th Nov 2006 19:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by Mellin on Fri 17th Nov 2006 00:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
Mellin Member since:
2005-07-06

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&as...

Your search - "windows XP Pro N" site:.se - did not match any documents.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&as...

Results 1 - 10 of about 82,000 Swedish pages for "windows XP Pro" site:.se. (0.06 seconds)

Edited 2006-11-17 00:06

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by NotParker on Fri 17th Nov 2006 00:14 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01
RE[7]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by dylansmrjones on Fri 17th Nov 2006 06:04 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Yes, and none of those are XP N. All the XP versions at kelkoo.se are XP _with_ WMP...

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by dylansmrjones on Fri 17th Nov 2006 03:36 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, no resellers in Denmark. Perhaps you can find one or two selling one, but nobody advertises for it, and searching on edbpriser.dk (the mothership of all hw/sw-related searches in Denmark) shows up nothing. I can get RHEL, Win2K3, Win XP Pro and Home, OS/2, eComStation and we even have Amiga resellers. But nobody sells Windows XP Pro N.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[6]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by NotParker on Fri 17th Nov 2006 05:50 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
RE[7]: Uhhhhhhhhh
by dylansmrjones on Fri 17th Nov 2006 06:02 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Uhhhhhhhhh"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

As I said: _NOBODY_ is advertising XP N in Denmark.

And nobody checks out Microsofts website in order to find XP N, which is btw. deeply buried.

Average Joe is buying in a shop, and in those shops you cannot buy XP N, nor do they advertise it.

The more knowledgeable persons may buy through an online shop. However, they don't advertise XP N. You have to know it is there, and you have to be adamant about getting it before they care about selling it.

The contents on the page you linked to, is pretty much FUD btw.

Anyway - the conclusion is: Nobody is advertising XP N. If they were, you could find it at edbpriser.dk or in BILKA, F°tex, Aldi, Quickly, Fakta, Fav°r, Netto, A-Z, Harald Nyborg, el-giganten etc.

However - XP N is to be found _nowhere_. That's why people don't buy it. And Average Joe won't buy with the FUD he can read at Microsoft's website.

Reply Score: 1

Play on laws as suaul.
by Moulinneuf on Thu 16th Nov 2006 12:00 UTC in reply to "Uhhhhhhhhh"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"Which near ZERO people actually bought"

It was not a new product suggestion for a new Microsoft product , it was made illegal to Microsoft to ship other versionon the European territory.

Its as if a drug dealer say I started selling/distributoin of milk to my usual drug clients and supplier and they refused to buy it. The Drug dealer was convicted for selling drug and it has to stop that , unless they live in a place where the drug they are selling is legal. In this case its not , all over Europe.

"according to press sources."

According to Microsoft own press releases.

"So how, exactly, has this Commission been even the slightest amount effective in promoting competition?"

They are not promoting competition , they are punishing the biggest software maker for breaking the law. One can argue that with Microsoft full specification and source code on what is asked they will be near 99% compatibility with Microsoft products.

Reply Score: 0

Yes there is news to when
by metro305 on Thu 16th Nov 2006 00:14 UTC
metro305
Member since:
2005-09-11

Direct copy and past from MSDN

Windows Vista and Office 2007: Availability on MSDN Subscriber Downloads Office 2007 is now available from MSDN Subscriber Downloads. Windows Vista is expected to be available on Friday November 17, 2006 PST.

-metro305

Reply Score: 3

v EU is horrible
by proforma on Thu 16th Nov 2006 09:07 UTC
RE: EU is horrible
by phoudoin on Thu 16th Nov 2006 09:52 UTC in reply to "EU is horrible"
phoudoin Member since:
2006-06-09

> The EU needs to go to hell. Screw them.

This club is already overcrowned. But you know that well, right.

> Have them use Linux and STFU.

Microsoft have to conform to EU market laws or drop its marketland. STFU works both way. You know that well too, right.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: EU is horrible
by proforma on Fri 17th Nov 2006 07:26 UTC in reply to "RE: EU is horrible"
proforma Member since:
2005-08-27

and I will say it again...

"The EU needs to go to hell. Screw them.

Have them use Linux and STFU."

The EU is filled with filthy liberals. They might as well try to get Microsoft to die because that is the end result they want. They only want non-american companies to sell in europe (read European).

***** f--k EUROPE AND f--k THE EU ************

I don't mean to act like a jackass but I am tired of Europe trying to tell how people should live. You would think many World Wars would have taught them something. That is the downside of humanity over there.

Reply Score: 0

RE: EU is horrible
by gilboa on Thu 16th Nov 2006 10:27 UTC in reply to "EU is horrible"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

Microsoft can decide to stop selling Microsoft products in the EU instead of confronting with the EU laws. The choice is their's to make.
Now, assuming you can actually compose two sentences in a row without trolling/swearing/generally abusing the English language, what exactly do you have -against- the EU law? (Let me guess, STFU?)

Someone should really raise the minimum posting requirements in OSNews.

- Gilboa

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: EU is horrible
by Mellin on Thu 16th Nov 2006 11:54 UTC in reply to "RE: EU is horrible"
Mellin Member since:
2005-07-06

"You have to be this tall to post on OSNews"

:)

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: EU is horrible
by gilboa on Thu 16th Nov 2006 12:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: EU is horrible"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

Sigh.

If only you were just kidding ;)

- Gilboa

Reply Score: 2

One wonders
by smitty_one_each on Thu 16th Nov 2006 11:16 UTC
smitty_one_each
Member since:
2005-07-07

How long before the EU becomes addicted to "fining" MS for bad, bad behavior, and schedules these "fines" to be an annual event.
Maybe the point where the EU actually builds their budget around the "fines" will be a tipping point, where, for reasons of typing efficiency, the "fines" are simply called a "tax".
Of course, in the US, we haven't gotten around to admitting that the Social Security money withheld from the paycheck is a tax, so the answer might be: never.

Reply Score: 2

RE: One wonders
by Tyr. on Thu 16th Nov 2006 11:36 UTC in reply to "One wonders"
Tyr. Member since:
2005-07-06

Maybe the point where the EU actually builds their budget around the "fines" will be a tipping point, where, for reasons of typing efficiency, the "fines" are simply called a "tax".

Last years EU budget : 115 956 million Euro
( http://ec.europa.eu/budget/budget_detail/last_year_en.htm )

MS fine (still unpaid as far as I know) : 497 million Euro

Yes, whatever will the EU do without MS' money ? *rolls eyes*
How about they just agree not to break the law, like the rest of us.

Edited 2006-11-16 11:38

Reply Score: 4

EU
by trinitrotolueen on Thu 16th Nov 2006 11:16 UTC
trinitrotolueen
Member since:
2006-10-03

I'm glad i don't live in Sue Plaza.And i doubt MS has any case regarding patent infringement.And if it has i doubt they can get nasty here in Europe where one is not guilty untill proven otherwise.

Browser: Links (2.1pre20; Linux 2.6.17-hardened-r1 x86_64; 80x24)

Reply Score: 1

well
by deanlinkous on Thu 16th Nov 2006 12:31 UTC
deanlinkous
Member since:
2006-06-19

The companies get the buggy OS first? Seems strange to me.

I am not sure MS is the only ones being a bit unfair, seems the EU does smack on MS a awful lot.

Wonder if they are just getting even with us evil americans?

Reply Score: 1

prediction
by deanlinkous on Thu 16th Nov 2006 13:25 UTC
deanlinkous
Member since:
2006-06-19

Vista will be out before the end of the year! I notice DELL is really pushing it.

Reply Score: 1

Re: same launch day
by Darkelve on Thu 16th Nov 2006 15:01 UTC
Darkelve
Member since:
2006-02-06

"By the way, I was just thinking, the fact that the Playstation 3 and Windows Vista are being released on the same day"

It's called "stealing the limelight"... remember, Microsoft also makes&sells the Xbox 360. So in that regard, it's not surprising and I don't think it's coincidence

Reply Score: 1

smitty_one_each
Member since:
2005-07-07

present tense, boss.
My concern is that the EU go the way of the Caesars, and increasingly look for deep pockets to mug.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

All bureaucrats do that. All over the world. Everyday. That's why we don't like them.

Reply Score: 1

v EUC sucks ass
by proforma on Fri 17th Nov 2006 07:28 UTC