Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 28th Feb 2007 22:26 UTC, submitted by dedownman
Windows "In the world of operating systems, Microsoft Windows Vista is just a baby. It's just now toddling along on new systems being sold throughout the U.S. And, like a small child being dropped by the stork to new parents, it's available to older desktop PCs via Microsoft's download-to-buy program. Giving early adopters such easy, unfettered access to the somewhat untested OS was a bold move by Microsoft. The company had to know that people like those who work at PC Magazine would be among the first to test-drive this new installation option."
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more and more
by Zedicus on Wed 28th Feb 2007 22:43 UTC
Zedicus
Member since:
2005-12-05

more bad press yet peeple still rush to vista like its their savior.

(note, last time i posted a similar comment on a vista review i got voted sown, am i missing something?)

Reply Score: 5

RE: more and more
by CowMan on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:00 UTC in reply to "more and more"
CowMan Member since:
2006-09-26

You argue against the power of the media?!

lol. Nah. Probably just OT.

Reply Score: 2

RE: more and more
by Kroc on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:07 UTC in reply to "more and more"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

The strangest behaviour I've found is that up and down the Internet, people are continually subconciously 'justifying' Vista to themselves. People are trying to build the cheapest system to run it well, people are trying to get the index number to go over 5, most comments I've read about Vista hide underneath a subtlety of people trying to somehow justify in their mind that Vista is a good standard benchmark to go by for everything; and that it's an acceptable product.

The truth is that it isn't. Comaptibility is dire, resource usage is dire, speed is dire. People think it acceptable, or even justifiable that Vista takes longer to start up and shut down that XP. They say "oh it's a bigger more powerful system, of course it'll take longer, and new hardware will reduce that anyway!". Absolute rot. In five years time Apple and [Linux] have managed to double, even triple the speed of their OS running on exactly the same hardware.

This whole using Vista as a good rule of thumb is inherently wrong. Everywhere around me I see people doping up on stupid pills or something. All the harsh press I think is very called for. The people sitting in offices who are going to have to deal with this monster of an OS can see beyond the geek driven hype fog.

Of all the OSes I've ever used, from any era, Vista has to be the worst I've laid hands on; and that is being objective. People would rather throw money and hardware at Vista to justify it then admit that it's a terrible 'upgrade'.

I'm glad I switched to a Mac now, I know this rant can easily label me as a windows basher and Mac fanboi, but I'm glad I've got a level head about the reality of Vista now that I've used the alternatives. Which is more than can be said of the Mac bashers who have never so much as used another operating system.

Edited 2007-02-28 23:19

Reply Score: 5

v RE[2]: more and more
by Joe User on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:45 UTC in reply to "RE: more and more"
RE[3]: more and more
by SlackerJack on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: more and more"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

I think this has already been said here but go try older versions of KDE 2.x-3.3 and then use KDE 3.5. Tiger runs fine with 256Mb ram with all eyecandy.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: more and more
by Kroc on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: more and more"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

As I said in another comment a while back, I've used every major beta release of Vista (Longhorn). Most of what I've said is my opinion. I feel that it is true given my experience of the five gruelling years of Vista development and the final product compared with as many years as I have managed to gain of overall computer experience on different Operating Systems and other companies and organisation's accomplishments.

Having moved off of Windows, I have come to genuinely know how superior OS X and Linux is to Windows, Vista included.

You can call that trolling, but at the end of the day, it's a) my opinion based on b) solid experience of Vista, and it's alternatives.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: more and more
by aGNUstic on Thu 1st Mar 2007 14:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: more and more"
aGNUstic Member since:
2005-07-28

"Having moved off of Windows, I have come to genuinely know how superior OS X and Linux is to Windows, Vista included."

I went completely McSoft `WinTrash` free in October of 2003 on my personal machines. My primary platforms are OS X and Linux and they both are rock solid and stable. My productivity rocketed into the stratosphere since I don't have jack around with anti-virus, reboots, spy-ware and associated crapware.

I know it probably peeves off the McSofties but oh well ... the global press and opinion mirrors what we've been saying all along. An honest opinion is not trolling.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: more and more
by jakesdad on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: more and more"
jakesdad Member since:
2005-12-28

Boot times/system speed for Linux and Mac OS X have increased. Windows has not.

here are 2 examples (there are plenty more)
http://www.infoworld.com/infoworld/article/04/01/30/05FElinux_2.htm...
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2006/11/1048_boosts_pho.html

Vista is out to make you buy new hardware... Thats it, it offers nothing that justifies the expense or increases user productivity.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: more and more
by protagonist on Thu 1st Mar 2007 18:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: more and more"
protagonist Member since:
2005-07-06

"Boot times/system speed for Linux and Mac OS X have increased. Windows has not.":

Let's see, boot OS X or PCBSD once every couple of months at 2 minutes per boot. 12 months divided by 2 times 2 minutes per boot = about 12 minutes per year boot time.

OK, boot Windows three times a week at 1 minute per boot. 3 times per week x 52 weeks per year x 1 minute per boot = 156 minutes per year boot time.

Hey you are right, that is much quicker than the 312 minutes per year I used to spend booting the older versions of Windows.

I wonder why I ever switched to OS X and PCBSD...

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: more and more
by sappyvcv on Thu 1st Mar 2007 21:06 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: more and more"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

What version of windows? I don't have to reboot Windows unless I install updates or install new hardware.

OS X makes me reboot on updates -- i think monthly. Same as Windows.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: more and more
by protagonist on Thu 1st Mar 2007 23:25 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: more and more"
protagonist Member since:
2005-07-06

Windows XP. I used to have to reboot a few times every week. Now I admit I probably do a lot more than most people do, but that was still no excuse. Admittedly, a lot of that was from 3rd party programs, but that can also be laid to MS's door as they either did not produce the software I needed or they did not provide all the information the software developers needed to make their program work properly.

And yes, OS X does make you reboot after some updates, but Windows was making me reboot after almost every update. Even those that should have been trivial. And almost all software installs in Windows want a reboot. Blame that one on the registry.

I also have the occasional reboot in OS X because of flaky behavior, but that is pretty rare. No OS is bullet proof, but with windows you didn't even get a flak vest. :-)

Anyway, I really was having to reboot Windows at least three times a week at the end. It was getting to the point where I was spending as much time maintaining the OS as I was actually doing things with it.

BTW, this is coming via Ubuntu which will shortly be rebooted into PCBSD.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: more and more
by jakesdad on Thu 1st Mar 2007 21:31 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: more and more"
jakesdad Member since:
2005-12-28

I just reread this post and it should read the boot times have improved, not increased. but whatever :p I need more coffee.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: more and more
by stestagg on Fri 2nd Mar 2007 01:28 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: more and more"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

With the recent push for new asynchronous boot managers (upstart etc..), the linux boot times are probably the quickest ever (for a fully functional GUI system) right at the moment.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: more and more
by joshv on Thu 1st Mar 2007 02:17 UTC in reply to "RE: more and more"
joshv Member since:
2006-03-18

"Comaptibility is dire."

Ran almost all of my old programs flawlessly. I now have updates for the rest.

"resource usage is dire"

No, it's not.

"speed is dire."

Faster than XP for me.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: more and more
by theTSF on Thu 1st Mar 2007 02:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: more and more"
theTSF Member since:
2005-09-27

"Ran almost all of my old programs flawlessly. I now have updates for the rest."

When I upgraded my my Mac OS all my programs worked hmmmm...


as for resource useage it is really a matter of what type of system you have. Some systems or bulk of the systems it will run slower then vista on fast systems it will run better. It is like Republicans for computers.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: more and more
by de_wizze on Thu 1st Mar 2007 12:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: more and more"
de_wizze Member since:
2005-10-31

What hardware do you have?

Reply Score: 1

RE: more and more
by graigsmith on Thu 1st Mar 2007 06:22 UTC in reply to "more and more"
graigsmith Member since:
2006-04-05

theres a simple fix for this problem.

microsoft, use an iso file. and have people BURN the dvd before they install it.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: more and more
by cheezlbub on Thu 1st Mar 2007 07:48 UTC in reply to "RE: more and more"
cheezlbub Member since:
2006-07-17

microsoft, use an iso file. and have people BURN the dvd before they install it

You're giving end users a lot of credit here. Maybe if burning isos was supported out of the box in XP this would be workable, but I have a feeling that, as things stand, MS would end up with boatloads of customers who can view a shiny iso file on a dvd and are hella confused.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: more and more
by Kroc on Thu 1st Mar 2007 08:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: more and more"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Yeah, but MS could include a burning wizard, like Bootcamp on Mac burns the drivers to CD for you. Microsoft however just want your money and can't be bothered to actually make the process easy.

Reply Score: 3

RE: more and more
by unoengborg on Thu 1st Mar 2007 07:21 UTC in reply to "more and more"
unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm not so sure that there is such a big rush. According the Feb 5 issue of Computer Sweden only 5% of all Swedish companies are expected to invest in Vista technology. One company out of five have decided to not even evaluate the new platform. The figures was based on a study made by Exido that had asked 1500 Swedish companies. Gartner have made similar studies.

However, I guess they change their mind when Vista is all you can get, but right now there is hardly a rush. Something that is confirmed by another article where IT-education houses complain that nobody buys courses on vista and Office 2007.

To me it seams that Microsoft have lost touch with their customers and their needs. I don't know if its just me getting old, but up until the release of windows win2k I looked forward to new software releases. I had hopes that they would make my life easier or at least solve some problems. Now, I just wonder what problems they or additional costs new software releases may cause.

Reply Score: 2

RE: more and more
by jessta on Thu 1st Mar 2007 07:55 UTC in reply to "more and more"
jessta Member since:
2005-08-17

It's the upgrade.
It's the only upgrade they know of.

Reply Score: 2

RE: more and more
by lopisaur on Thu 1st Mar 2007 08:21 UTC in reply to "more and more"
lopisaur Member since:
2006-02-27

There was a time when PC Magazine was actually objective and not a Microsoft-centric rag like it is today and Ulanoff is amongst the biggest poster-children for MS. The only thing I honestly enjoy that comes from the Ziff-Davis' camp is Dvorak's columns, which (at least until now) are still somewhat objective and he remains as sarcastic as ever.
(There was actually a time when PC Magazine was about PCs and not about MP3 players, TVs and whatnot)

Reply Score: 4

Ain't no way
by Jon Dough on Wed 28th Feb 2007 22:45 UTC
Jon Dough
Member since:
2005-11-30

Even before I read this article, there was no way I'd install a new OS that didn't have an install CD/DVD, or buy a new PC without the OS install CD/DVD. This just cements it. Yeah, I know that many PC makers prefer to cut corners by providing a restore partition on the HD or perhaps a restore disk. To me, that's not the same as having an OS disk.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Ain't no way
by fretinator on Wed 28th Feb 2007 22:57 UTC in reply to "Ain't no way"
fretinator Member since:
2005-07-06

Are any Windows PC's actually sold with an OS disk anymore? I thought they all had restore disks (or worse, restore partitions) now.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Ain't no way
by mym6 on Thu 1st Mar 2007 02:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Ain't no way"
mym6 Member since:
2005-08-26

Yes, my compaq presario v2414nr had a normal xp home install cd. I made sure it did before I bought it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Ain't no way
by lvikstro on Thu 1st Mar 2007 14:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Ain't no way"
lvikstro Member since:
2005-08-26

My HP pavilion 2206 also has a normal XP home disk.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ain't no way
by StephenBeDoper on Thu 1st Mar 2007 14:12 UTC in reply to "Ain't no way"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, I know that many PC makers prefer to cut corners by providing a restore partition on the HD or perhaps a restore disk. To me, that's not the same as having an OS disk.

Amen. The thing I find especially annoying about the restore disks is that they almost never give you a "clean" Windows installation - they also conveniently restore all the useless crap that big OEMs like to pre-load these days.

Reply Score: 2

Re: Ain't no Way
by Bobmeister on Wed 28th Feb 2007 22:56 UTC
Bobmeister
Member since:
2005-07-06

Pardon my ignorance, because I haven't even looked at any download options for Vista...but don't you download it and burn an image to a DVD (or whatever) that is bootable, like Linux or something? And then you would have a DVD? How does this work? He just download to someplace and install from a file? Wouldn't you have burned a DVD?

That said...this is not good news for MS! Another bad story....

Reply Score: 3

RE: Re: Ain't no Way
by joshv on Thu 1st Mar 2007 02:15 UTC in reply to "Re: Ain't no Way"
joshv Member since:
2006-03-18

No, you do not burn a bootable DVD. You download an installer to your harddisk. You can burn a backup, but it's not bootable.

I did the download option the first day it was available and didn't have any issues, outside of the normal driver incompatibilities.

Reply Score: 2

For my experience ...
by Shannara on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:15 UTC
Shannara
Member since:
2005-07-06

One thing I can say, is do not ever use the upgrade anytime cd! I ended up using that to upgrade from Business to Ultimate and the ordering process kept failing. Claiming unable to validate card. However, despite that, they have charged my card over 10 times. I am roughly $1200 under thanks to M.S.. Bank is going to charge back all charges from them and block them out completely so other users don't get scammed by this company.

BTW: This is not bad press, it is fact. Microsoft should of tested this service before opening it up to the public.

Reply Score: 4

funny but sad
by jptros on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:19 UTC
jptros
Member since:
2005-08-26

I can't believe the tech asked him to go borrow a DVD from his neighbor, forget the "no one hardly owns a copy of vista yet" part. Something about that is just wrong and has to be bad business practice. You don't tell a paying customer to go borrow a copy of your product to correct a flaw in your product.

Reply Score: 5

RE: funny but sad
by StephenBeDoper on Thu 1st Mar 2007 14:16 UTC in reply to "funny but sad"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Anyone remember stories on Usenet, in the late 90s, about AOL phone techs advising customers to dig up their phone lines to solve connection issues? I guess we know where those people are employed now.

Reply Score: 3

No wonder...
by eantoranz on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:36 UTC
eantoranz
Member since:
2005-12-18

.. that Windows is their cash cow... if you are gonna have to pay twice or thrice for each windows instance, I bet the profit will increase these quarters to come. :-D

Reply Score: 2

Clean install
by kpig on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:39 UTC
kpig
Member since:
2006-12-15

anyone at pcmag knows, who are they kidding, the only way to go with any new os is with a clean install, windows, linux, osx, just do a clean install, why fool yourself

Reply Score: 2

RE: Clean install
by WorknMan on Thu 1st Mar 2007 05:43 UTC in reply to "Clean install"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

anyone at pcmag knows, who are they kidding, the only way to go with any new os is with a clean install, windows, linux, osx, just do a clean install, why fool yourself

I don't know so much about Linux and OSX (I gather they are better about this), but when it comes to Windows, you are 100% correct. From the article:

That was, to some extent, what was on PC Magazine publisher and tech-savvy computer user Jim McCabe's mind when he decided to upgrade his laptop with the latest OS.

I'm sorry, but no tech-savvy user would EVER attempt to install one version of Windows over another one. The only thing missing from this review (which is found in so many other Vista reviews) is the guy bitching that his old version of Norton doesn't work anymore.

In this case, does the problem lie between the seat and the keyboard? No, this is entirely Microsoft's fault. Trying to do an upgrade install with Windows has never worked right, and probably never will. I don't know why they even attempt it. They should just force clean installs. Worst of all, it's really annoying to see these supposedly 'tech-savvy' dipshits keep trying it, only to run into the same, predictable results. For you Linux users, it would be like seeing several Linux reviews where the person doing the reviewing would mix and match packages from different distro repositories, and then they bitch and moan when things started to break.

BUT .... if you do a clean install instead, then the results are also fairly predictable:

This time McCabe did a clean install, which meant that all of his software and hardware would be shoved into a Windows Old folder (a resting place for things you'd likely never see or use again). Windows Vista now worked flawlessly -- even with the updates

That's right, kids ... when setting up a new version of Windows, ALWAYS do a clean install. I think this is the 6th time I've said it here.

Oh, and the last part of the article is what kills me:

Where did Jim go wrong? Apparently, it was when he took a risk on the downloadable version of Windows Vista.

LOL, whatever. Like if he had the DVD, he would've done a clean install like he should've done in the first place.

NOTE: I'm still waiting for a Vista review from somebody who knows what the hell their doing. I do not mean to attack the reviewer here ... if he had said he was just another Joe Average, I would say this was a great review, because many Joe Averages would've tried to install Vista the same way, so this is an accurate representation of what Joe Average will experience. But this guy tried to come across as somebody who knows his shit, and should've known better than to try and do what he did.

Edited 2007-03-01 05:51

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Clean install
by topos on Thu 1st Mar 2007 13:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Clean install"
topos Member since:
2005-07-28

If doing an upgrade of windows never works, why does Microsoft even propose that option?
These PC mags guys obviously did know that doing an upgrade was risky. They try it as many less tech-savvy would and they describe how the result is not pretty. And the support they received from Microsoft is even more pitifull.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Clean install
by WorknMan on Thu 1st Mar 2007 14:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Clean install"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

I honestly don't know why they give people the option ... they shouldn't. It's the same point I made in my original post:

In this case, does the problem lie between the seat and the keyboard? No, this is entirely Microsoft's fault. Trying to do an upgrade install with Windows has never worked right, and probably never will. I don't know why they even attempt it. They should just force clean installs.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Clean install
by joshv on Fri 2nd Mar 2007 05:19 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Clean install"
joshv Member since:
2006-03-18

I upgraded from XP - other than crap drivers from IBM that Vista detected and properly disabled, I didn't have many problems. IBM/Lenovo still haven't release Vista drivers that work, but those drivers were there mostly to plug holes in XP, that no longer exist in Vista - so I don't miss them.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Clean install
by cyclops on Thu 1st Mar 2007 14:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Clean install"
cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

Why?

A clean install is a myth created by the XP Power user(sic).

If you are in a cooperate environment, with access to Original discs, spare product keys, and a set collection of programs, with access to various tools. Its practical.

I have 3 XP machines here *none* of them came with an XP disk, and they are all from different locations and companies. One is from a company that does not exist anymore *Compaq*

I have *many* programs on my computer, that have been activated online, installed from CD-ROM...even a few from floppies. Many of these programs need online patches to run. Where so I even start!?

I've not even got to dual booting. I have a machine here that has XP, and a 98SE that doesn't work. It has never worked. The solutions I have seen involve installing XP and then 98SE. There probably is a solution but I simply gave up...and I have programs on there that simply do *not* work with XP.

I could go on...but we all know the truth machines the world is moving away from *fixing* machines, people simply buy a new one.

Now if your talking linux with a home partition, and the programs are all free. Its a different world.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Clean install
by Anim8me2 on Thu 1st Mar 2007 14:39 UTC in reply to "Clean install"
Anim8me2 Member since:
2006-02-10

I understand a clean install of Windows, I have never had an upgrade work. Linux I have no experience with, but on OSX...
I am running the same basic system install for 6 years. The only thing I have ever done until this week is upgrades. I have been having problems with the newest version of Painter and finally in desperation I did an archive and install to try and fix it.
Took an hour, system looks and works exactly as before... right back to work.

Reply Score: 1

Once more...
by mmu_man on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:42 UTC
mmu_man
Member since:
2006-09-30

free beta testers ;)
I won't be anyway. DRM sux.

Reply Score: 1

Kroc said it all
by SlackerJack on Wed 28th Feb 2007 23:50 UTC
SlackerJack
Member since:
2005-11-12

But i'm going to have to back him up on this, as soon as something goes wrong with Linux/OS X people go back to Windows claim it's better. Yet all the issues they have in WIndows they are able to put up with, why do you people keep putting up with this crap?

People say Vista is faster than XP, well yes because it's preloaded stuff to be faster at the price of memory thats mainly why.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Kroc said it all
by PlatformAgnostic on Thu 1st Mar 2007 05:46 UTC in reply to "Kroc said it all"
PlatformAgnostic Member since:
2006-01-02

I wonder why you got modded up for stating the obvious. What's the point of memory, if not to make things faster? If you're actually doing something with your computer rather than stroking it, you'll pay more attention to perceived (and actual) performance than the stupid memory meter.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Kroc said it all
by biteydog on Thu 1st Mar 2007 11:00 UTC in reply to "RE: Kroc said it all"
biteydog Member since:
2005-10-06

Yabut - it depends what you want to run fast. I work with large graphics files (100M and up) 2 or 3 at a time.

So - I want my memory free when I start work. I don't want it full of email, web pages, stuff I look at when I first boot in the morning. I get a smooth run when there is >700M free memory after I've finished all this routine stuff.

So I use Linux.

Reply Score: 2

Pretty shoddy reporting
by camo r on Thu 1st Mar 2007 00:45 UTC
camo r
Member since:
2005-08-26

"8) Can I burn a copy of the upgrade version of Windows Vista I have purchased?

Yes, you can burn a DVD of the downloaded files, but you will need to copy files locally on your machines before they running. You are also eligible to receive software fulfillment—a DVD or 5 CDs--from Microsoft (you pay only shipping and handling)."

Really horrible grammar but stated right there on the marketplace page, you can burn or demand a copy of your PURCHASED DVD.

Really bad piece of journalism PCMAG, pretty shoddy indeed.

Reply Score: 3

Vista
by Nex6 on Thu 1st Mar 2007 01:03 UTC
Nex6
Member since:
2005-07-06

I am an OS junky, I love OS's and as a professional geek. it suits me, it what pains me, is OS bashing; but mostly, the people doing the most bashing are wrong. and there ARE cases where said OS (windows,OSX,Linux etc) deserves To be bashed.

like it or not, Microsoft is here to stay, as are most software houses the develop and sell software.

that all said:

every OS has bagage, for windows is two major things:

*backwards compatibility
*early design descions like:
**trying to empower users and developers

at least vista made some good attempts and it broke some compatibility, which is a good start for microsoft as they have a history of trying to maintian 100% compatibility.

and Vista under the hood is a very different OS then XP and 2000, very different stuff like: all drivers are in user space and low rights frameworks for IE. the low rights framework can be used by any applcation that is written for it.

-Nex6

Reply Score: 1

Download option sucked
by Epyon on Thu 1st Mar 2007 01:11 UTC
Epyon
Member since:
2005-11-21

I stupidly tried the digital locker BS to download Vista. I thought that you'd download a DVD image and just burn it to a disc. Oh how wrong I was. It was an install program. I was after much trouble able to make a bootable DVD out of the mess but it kept erroring out on different files each time I tried the install. I said screw it after about 3 hours and got a refund.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Download option sucked
by joshv on Thu 1st Mar 2007 02:20 UTC in reply to "Download option sucked"
joshv Member since:
2006-03-18

Um, why didn't you just run the freakin' installer, the way it was intended? It worked fine for me.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Download option sucked
by TechGeek on Thu 1st Mar 2007 02:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Download option sucked"
TechGeek Member since:
2006-01-14

Thats not really the point of the article or what the previous poster was saying. Yes you can burn a copy of the install files. But even if you do that doesnt help when they ask you to put in the install DVD and boot from it, does it? The download option really sucks if it doesnt work right. You are basically stuck to retoring your old system. (Hope to hell you have a full system backup)

Reply Score: 2

Need a hard drive stress test?
by Caspian on Thu 1st Mar 2007 02:57 UTC
Caspian
Member since:
2006-01-01

The only problem I have with vista is the CONSTANT grinding of the hard drive. Many people have tried to tell me to turn the indexing off. Ok, fine, I did, but it still grinds, and grinds, and grinds.

Good god, my linux install indexes, and it doesn't CONSTANTLY grind my hard drive, same hard drive also. My osx install indexes, that also doesn't make my hard drive sound like it's about to melt down.

The hard drive has never clicked, and it has plenty of ventilation, it's vista that is the problem, not the hardware.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Need a hard drive stress test?
by zlynx on Thu 1st Mar 2007 04:27 UTC in reply to "Need a hard drive stress test?"
zlynx Member since:
2005-07-20

If you'll remember back to the first days of Mac OS 10.4 (Tiger) when indexing was new, you'll remember how many problems it caused people, especially laptop users, killing battery life with the indexing.

I know that our iMac felt slow and ran the HD constantly for almost the entire day after we installed Tiger on it.

Linux with beagle indexing does the same thing. Sure, beagle will try to be "nice" but it takes forever that way, so I always run it on new systems or after DB version updates with the BEAGLE_EXERCISE_THE_DOG=1 set, and it uses 100% CPU and disk for about an hour. Depends on how many files you have.

My Vista Beta installs settled down after a day or two of indexing. The other thing Vista does is its SuperFetch thing. It doesn't get enough prediction data to be very useful for about a week but after that it seems pretty good. Before that, it's also thrashing the drive prefetching useless info. Another thing Vista does is defrag the hard disk in the background.

Once all that gets sorted out, Vista quiets down.

Reply Score: 3

Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Once all that gets sorted out, Vista quiets down.

Good to know, but it still sounds like a huge PITA to deal with. If you're going to install an OS from scratch, why doesn't it already know exactly what it installed on the hard drive?

Reply Score: 3

Has anyone thought...
by kaiwai on Thu 1st Mar 2007 03:51 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

That the problem lies between the seat and the keyboard? or better still, the fact that the hardware *might* be faulty? What might cause a BSOD might not always cause a kernel panic in Linux, but instead odd application behaviour.

I know its going to fall on deaf ears by instead of hysteria, how about stepping back for a moment and looking at the situation like rational adults rather than assuming because a couple of, quite frankly, nitwitts experienced problems install Windows, its a 'benchmark' as to what everyone else is experiencing.

It is interesting though, when I bring up issues I have with Solaris, Linux or FreeBSD - I am abused, accused of being a Microsoft shill, for 'not understanding' - its a kin to the extreme right and left justifying mass purges because the doctrine had become 'impure' - the very idea what someone *might* have problems with their beloved operating system is almost considered heresy around here.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Has anyone thought...
by Snifflez on Thu 1st Mar 2007 04:31 UTC in reply to "Has anyone thought..."
Snifflez Member since:
2005-11-15

"That the problem lies between the seat and the keyboard? or better still, the fact that the hardware *might* be faulty? What might cause a BSOD might not always cause a kernel panic in Linux, but instead odd application behaviour."

True, but what about other problems? Can the customer service representative's ignorance about the download option be attributed to faulty hardware? Or what about his ridiculous suggestion to go and "borrow" a Vista DVD from a neighbor -- is it perhaps a PEBKAC?

"I know its going to fall on deaf ears by instead of hysteria, how about stepping back for a moment and looking at the situation like rational adults rather than assuming because a couple of, quite frankly, nitwitts experienced problems install Windows, its a 'benchmark' as to what everyone else is experiencing."

For someone who spends a large portion of the next paragraph complaining about name-calling and "abuse", you sure are quick to resort to the very tactics you condemn and whine about. Do you always call people you disagree with "nitwits", o' rational one?

"It is interesting though, when I bring up issues I have with Solaris, Linux or FreeBSD - I am abused, accused of being a Microsoft shill, for 'not understanding' - its a kin to the extreme right and left justifying mass purges because the doctrine had become 'impure' - the very idea what someone *might* have problems with their beloved operating system is almost considered heresy around here."

Awww, you poor, bleeding martyr. One halo short of "Saint" Kaiwai. A lonely voice of reason crying in the desert full of OS fanboys.

Dude, it's just a tech site, OK? There's no need to develop a false martyrdom complex.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Has anyone thought...
by Clinton on Thu 1st Mar 2007 05:40 UTC in reply to "Has anyone thought..."
Clinton Member since:
2005-07-05

I don't think you are correct. This isn't the usual "Windows Sucks" speak from Linux and OS X users, these complaints are coming from many prominent Windows supporters.

Seriously, in this case, what Linux or OS X user even reads PC Magazine? None of the Linux users I know do. PC Magazine targets the Windows user for the most part. It's the computer magazine my Windows-using dad reads.

Personally, I've spent a total of two hours on a Vista machine. I thought the eye candy was pretty, but the experience was frustrating and left me feeling thankful the experience was over. That isn't a good impression for Microsoft to leave if they want to gain new users, and it appears that they are losing at least a few users who previously liked Windows. That is less than ideal for Microsoft, don't you think?

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Has anyone thought...
by kaiwai on Thu 1st Mar 2007 09:19 UTC in reply to "RE: Has anyone thought..."
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Personally, I've spent a total of two hours on a Vista machine. I thought the eye candy was pretty, but the experience was frustrating and left me feeling thankful the experience was over. That isn't a good impression for Microsoft to leave if they want to gain new users, and it appears that they are losing at least a few users who previously liked Windows. That is less than ideal for Microsoft, don't you think?

What problems were you experiencing? I have been running Windows Vista for 2 weeks so far, and yet to experience a single problem; compared to Windows XP, Windows Vista makes Windows XP it look like a POS.

If you are going to make statements as to the deficiencies of Windows, wouldn't it be prudent to actually outline what the said issues are rather than simply making gross generalisations about the Windows experience as a whole?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Has anyone thought...
by Clinton on Fri 2nd Mar 2007 07:36 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Has anyone thought..."
Clinton Member since:
2005-07-05

Nobody wants to read a damn book in an OSNews comment. ;) However, I will give you a couple of impressions.

It was dog slow (on a new HP machine).

More than that though, I hated being asked every time I did anything if I was sure I wanted to do it. That is irritating beyond words. I'm sure you can turn that "feature" off, but it wasn't my computer.

When I first saw OS X, I was impressed and bent over backwards to acquire an Apple laptop running OS X for work. OS X is calculated, painstaking usability on top of Unix. I always hated Apple, but OS X made me take a look. It made everybody take a look.

Vista doesn't do that. It is slow and irritating.

After 5 years of development and plenty of good examples to "innovate" from, I expected a lot more. It was underwhelming to say the least.

Reply Score: 1

Vendor Member since:
2006-11-14

Correction:
I went to Google, and the first result for "circuitcity download vista" gave me:

http://www.windowsmarketplace.com/details.aspx?view=info&itemid=326...

And there it was, 2/3 of the way down the page, clearly available. Accusing PC Magazine of bias or prejudice is one thing, suggesting they have invented easily-checkable facts without doing a quick google for the info is unfair to the writer. To imply that he was prepared to invent details for his story, and drag "Circuit City" (whoever they might be) into his deception is harsh and unnecessary. By using Google before posting such comments, you may be able to avoid making a similar mistake in the future.

Reply Score: 4

steverez1 Member since:
2006-12-06

I stand corrected I used their term when searching google and windows live which turned up nothing

"Microsoft's download-to-buy program" which in hindsight has minus's in it

Reply Score: 1

Has anyone thought ...
by Shkaba on Thu 1st Mar 2007 05:15 UTC
Shkaba
Member since:
2006-06-22

that support guy is located in India, and has no clue? "Borroe the DVD from ...." has to be the pinnacle of ignorance. I don't understand why don't they (MS) provide a downloadable image.
On a slightly different note, wtf are people doing installing MS OS before SP1. This has become a norm with Windows. Pressure to meet deadlines (like all commercial vendors) implies that they will release software even if it is not ready.

Reply Score: 1

Hmm
by abdavidson on Thu 1st Mar 2007 05:35 UTC
abdavidson
Member since:
2005-07-06

Judging Vista based on the betas going back over the last 5 years is rather unkind, especially given the code was reset 3 years ago, and having used the last public B1 and B2 releases they are so far removed from the RTM it is night and day.

As it stands Vista for me is better-drivers-and-some-care-after-wider-public-feedback away from being the best OS MS produced yet (my previous favourite being 2000... I thought XP was a bad joke)

That their download process screwed up is irrelevant to the worth (or lack) of the OS as a whole.

Reply Score: 2

Not So Strange
by hraq on Thu 1st Mar 2007 06:10 UTC
hraq
Member since:
2005-07-06

"The tech recovered with a brilliant idea: "Can you borrow it from a friend?"

"He wanted me to walk next door and ask my neighbor if he had a Windows Vista installation DVD," explained an exasperated McCabe."

Actually I would expect much more horrible stories about customer support from MS or from others.

1. BFG sent me a replacement for my defective GPU. and Guess what? I was used and a small chip on it was burnt and the DVI out was not working and VGA was working with horrible streaks and patterns on the screen.
2. Buy.com: I had a performance plan and my monitor viewsonic got defective and the plan said it will get replaced in <1 week; Guess what? I had a check returned to me after 2.5 months of battle with their customer support, who erased (by mistake) my insurance when they switch their repair partners.
3. Brother.com: placed a question to ask how to get the Multifunciton Printer/Scanner/Fax to work on solaris; and they answered me with the irrelevant answer of check how to install your printer on linux. Thanks I dont need to install it on linux because Its already running on linux flawlessly, but I need to associate CUPS to the applications.

So, from previous examples you can see that you cannot depend on customer support at all these days to solve your problems, actually the best method to install windows ( and I am talking to the author here ) or repair it or troubleshoot configuration is to hire a technician or a professional to come over to your place and do the job for you.

By the way I had a similar problem installing both windows server 2003/vista on one of the machines I have; I got BSOD after finishing from the installation and I turned off almost all devices on the system and pinpointed the problem to ATI RS300NB/IXP150SB chipset which was badly following engineering standards, thus rendering the system incompatible with anything beyond XP. No, problem here though on it because fedora serves me well on this system. The System is a Shuttle FT61 Mobo/Case for Intel Pentium 4 CPUs.

So, my advise to the author would be: stop being a hero and let the professionals handle the problem; otherwise buy a new vista based Box: On Most web sites you can find quite capable ones with just 500$

Stay well, and Happy computing.

Reply Score: 1

Tech Savvy?
by Bit_Rapist on Thu 1st Mar 2007 14:41 UTC
Bit_Rapist
Member since:
2005-11-13

Before I rip this guy I'll state that I'm totally in agreement that MS is f'ing crazy with this download option. If they want to offer a download option then they should give you a way to burn the download off to DVD or CD BEFORE the install.

Of course I can't help but think that this guy is the farthest thing from tech savvy I've seen. Only someone who had no clue or has never dealt with windows screwing up (What tech savvy user has never had windows bomb out and require a re-install? NONE) would even attempt something like this.

Reply Score: 1

Borrow a DVD of Vista????????
by thingi on Fri 2nd Mar 2007 13:26 UTC
thingi
Member since:
2006-02-28

Hmmnnnn, borrow a DVD of Vista? Yeah right we all have lots of friends with Vista DVD's.......

The real trouble is that 90% of people with a Vista machine will NEVER have a Vista DVD. If you buy an OEM machine it won't have a Vista Disc it will have a Vista Ghost Image / Restore DVD which will be of no help at all.

MS does everything it can to stop oem's from providing a real OS CD and has done since SP1 of XP!
]
thingi

Reply Score: 1