Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 24th Mar 2007 19:20 UTC, submitted by Robert Escue
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y "Sun and Red Hat have both submitted new versions of their trusted operating systems for Common Criteria certification evaluation. While these systems are being evaluated against the same CC protection profiles and at the same evaluation assurance level, these systems differ in significant ways that affect how a customer might choose to use such systems."
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Wonderful to read such a detailed analysis
by wahgnube on Sat 24th Mar 2007 20:55 UTC
wahgnube
Member since:
2006-01-28

I've spent quite some time going through this article, and I was surprised to find such a detailed comparison. I half-expected some sort of marketing-speak inundated write-up highlighting the "glorious advantages" of Solaris 10 over RHEL 5 in this regard.

Here is a summary of the results:
http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/features/hub_articles/mls_trusted_exts_...

I use RHEL and have been gradually getting more accustomed to SELinux since it was introduced in Fedora a few years ago. I particularly find the new SELinux troubleshooting tool useful in RHEL 5, as otherwise problems arising because of an improperly configured SELinux would just loom mysteriously.

This article makes me want to try (Open)Solaris, especially because of how integrated it claims Trusted Extensions are to the OS.

Reply Score: 4

Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

You don't have to download OpenSolaris to try Trusted Extensions, you can download Solaris 10 11/06 from Sun. Trusted Extensions as well as Secure By Default are part of that Release.

Reply Score: 3

flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

// This article makes me want to try (Open)Solaris, especially because of how integrated it claims Trusted Extensions are to the OS. //

You should. Containers in Solaris have more benefits than just TE.

Reply Score: 3

Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

SELinux is much easier to manage than it used to be. Its not just the troublshooting tool either..

One tool does it graphically: system-config-selinux.

Anyway, SELinux is just one of Fedora/RHEL's security features. I hope Sun included the others in their comparision

http://www.awe.com/mark/blog/200701041544.html
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Security/Features

;-)

Reply Score: 5

Interesting tidbit
by abraxas on Sat 24th Mar 2007 23:13 UTC
abraxas
Member since:
2005-07-07

One thing that was mentioned that really caught my eye, even though it has nothing to do with security, is that Solaris uses a 3 year old version of GNOME! You could always use CDE but that's like using a 15 year old version of XFCE. I guess SUN doesn't plan on updating GNOME for Java Desktop until their next release of Solaris. If SUN continues to go this route they are ALWAYS going to have an older, staler graphical interface compared to competing Linux vendors. They don't have a chance on the desktop no matter which vendor is chosen for server side duties and without the desktop Solaris can never fully compete with Microsoft or Linux.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Interesting tidbit
by kaiwai on Sun 25th Mar 2007 00:11 UTC in reply to "Interesting tidbit"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Pardon?

There is nothing stopping you from downloading OpenSolaris Express Community Edition or OpenSolaris Express Developer Edition; both B60 and 02/2007 have GNOME 2.16.1 with their respective distributions.

Don't let the name fool you, just because it says 'express', it isn't code for 'bug ridden shit hole' - all the submissions to OpenSolaris go through the same rigorous testing as their own development - its no more 'bleeding edge' to use OpenSolaris as it is to use Fedora - infact, my limited experience so far with B60 has shown that it is more reliable and stable than Linux.

Oh, and why won't they update GNOME? because their customers don't want it to be done - also, if you look through the changes, the massive changes they would have to make to Solaris 10 would be so large, it would be the worlds largest jumbo patch - there is a tonne of technology which the new GNOME desktop relies on which isn't provided with Solaris 10; HAL support for instance, which relies on changes further down.

If Sun makes a decision not to do something with their product, 9/10 there is normally a damn good reason, and *shock* *horror* they might have consulted with customers whether the justification for a massive disruption was worth it - customers obviously said no.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Interesting tidbit
by segedunum on Sun 25th Mar 2007 00:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting tidbit"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

9/10 there is normally a damn good reason, and *shock* *horror* they might have consulted with customers

Customers never get consulted on these things. What few customers they might have using their Gnome desktop, at any rate. However, if they want people using Solaris desktops, in view of the competition, then they're going to have to do something about it.

It's purely for reasons based on the fact that they cannot keep up with every single release of Gnome, and the fact that Gnome depends on an awful lot of stuff that at the moment is pretty Linux specific. HAL and GStreamer are such components, and it's going to get ever worse for Sun. They should pick a desktop that has retained its sanity and is much more environment agnostic.

Edited 2007-03-25 00:19

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Interesting tidbit
by kaiwai on Sun 25th Mar 2007 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting tidbit"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Customers never get consulted on these things. What few customers they might have using their Gnome desktop, at any rate. However, if they want people using Solaris desktops, in view of the competition, then they're going to have to do something about it.

Pardon? So you're saying to me that you work for Sun and know their decisions and who they speak to (and according to you, don't)?

It's purely for reasons based on the fact that they cannot keep up with every single release of Gnome, and the fact that Gnome depends on an awful lot of stuff that at the moment is pretty Linux specific. HAL and GStreamer are such components, and it's going to get ever worse for Sun. They should pick a desktop that has retained its sanity and is much more environment agnostic.

Pardon again? have you checked out SX:DE or SX:CE? both have HAL, gstreamer, cd ripping capabilities etc.

Again, stop spreading lies and half truths when you've done very little in the way of investigating what is on offer.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by segedunum on Sun 25th Mar 2007 12:09 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Pardon? So you're saying to me that you work for Sun and know their decisions and who they speak to (and according to you, don't)?

What a cop out that meaningless statement is. I am saying I know what it's like when these decisions are made, and you are never consulted.

Pardon again? have you checked out SX:DE or SX:CE?

Yes. And they're well out of date.

Again, stop spreading lies and half truths when you've done very little in the way of investigating what is on offer.

I'm not. That's the way it is, and I don't understand the defensive manner in which this is discussed.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by binarycrusader on Sun 25th Mar 2007 17:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06


Pardon again? have you checked out SX:DE or SX:CE?

Yes. And they're well out of date.


GNOME 2.16, and soon 2.18 is out of date? Interesting definition there...

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Interesting tidbit
by flanque on Sun 25th Mar 2007 00:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting tidbit"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

// Customers never get consulted on these things. //

I'm going to have to pull you up on that one. Changes and development are driven by the demands of customers. It's very naive to suggest that Sun doesn't consult with customers, especially given the stakes of getting it wrong given the infrastructure that Solaris typically operates on.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by kaiwai on Sun 25th Mar 2007 02:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm going to have to pull you up on that one. Changes and development are driven by the demands of customers. It's very naive to suggest that Sun doesn't consult with customers, especially given the stakes of getting it wrong given the infrastructure that Solaris typically operates on.

The problem is that the original poster assumes that because he wasn't rung about and treated as if he were the sole decider of the future direction of Solaris, apparently no one is consulted.

I think the original poster needs to realise one thing; OpenSolaris is an opensource project; if you don't like the direction of Solaris, then do something about it!

In the OpenSolaris community, there are those who are not happy with the choice of GNOME being the default desktop for OpenSolaris, so they've setup a project with the aim to bring KDE 4.0 to OpenSolaris, which will have full integration between OpenSolaris and the desktop environment.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by segedunum on Sun 25th Mar 2007 12:14 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

The problem is that the original poster assumes that because he wasn't rung about and treated as if he were the sole decider of the future direction of Solaris, apparently no one is consulted.

Do you have something useful to say at all?

OpenSolaris is an opensource project; if you don't like the direction of Solaris, then do something about it!

I wasn't talking about OpenSolaris.

In the OpenSolaris community, there are those who are not happy with the choice of GNOME being the default desktop for OpenSolaris

And you don't know what I'm talking about. Great.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by segedunum on Sun 25th Mar 2007 12:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm going to have to pull you up on that one. Changes and development are driven by the demands of customers.

Which proves you aren't one.

It's very naive

You're not naive, you just don't know what you're talking about at all if you think customers are consulted about technical decisions like this related to the software they're using.

Edited 2007-03-25 12:12

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by flanque on Sun 25th Mar 2007 21:06 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

// Which proves you aren't one. //

50+ servers, several data centres.


// You're not naive, you just don't know what you're talking about at all if you think customers are consulted about technical decisions like this related to the software they're using. //

Have a read again. I never said all. That indeed would be naive. If you think that consumers have just swallowed what Sun throw at them and will continue to do so, then I would suggest to you the balance of common sense tilts against you.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Interesting tidbit
by RandomGuy on Sun 25th Mar 2007 00:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting tidbit"
RandomGuy Member since:
2006-07-30

Hey, I love KDE but do we really need to turn every single, not even remotely related thread into a GNOME vs KDE flamewar?

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by segedunum on Sun 25th Mar 2007 12:14 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Hey, I love KDE but do we really need to turn every single, not even remotely related thread into a GNOME vs KDE flamewar?

Can you point out to me where I mentioned KDE in that post?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by RandomGuy on Sun 25th Mar 2007 13:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
RandomGuy Member since:
2006-07-30

Can you point out to me where I mentioned KDE in that post?

Oh, sorry! I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
But even after re-re-reading your comment I still cannot imagine what you're comparing GNOME with if it's not KDE.
Because just saying "GNOME sucks!" without talking about alternatives is rather silly. Remember, we are talking about fully fledged DEs here.
With a big team of developers, corporate support, ...

Reply Score: 1

v RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by aGNUstic on Sun 25th Mar 2007 14:18 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
RE[3]: Interesting tidbit
by Robert Escue on Sun 25th Mar 2007 01:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting tidbit"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Well I guess Sun wouldn't consult you since you are not a customer, and if you are, I would hate to be your Sun rep. And they listen to us just fine.

And what does having the latest version of Gnome have to do with Trusted Extensions? I suppose if we dissected RedHat Enterprise Linux, we would find equally "ancient" software as well. Considering the Common Criteria evaluation process can take up to a year it would not surprise me at all that what is bundled with either OS is not "up to date", and considering the very nature of how each OS is to be used, would you want bleeding edge and untested software as part of the OS just so you can have your toys?

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by Doc Pain on Sun 25th Mar 2007 02:06 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

"[...] would you want bleeding edge and untested software as part of the OS just so you can have your toys?"

This is mostly correct for the home users. But enterprise users (or their respective IT departments) should be more intelligent in regards of first planning what they really need, then installing it in a professional manner.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by kaiwai on Sun 25th Mar 2007 03:11 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Well I guess Sun wouldn't consult you since you are not a customer, and if you are, I would hate to be your Sun rep. And they listen to us just fine.

Hmm, more correctly; he is probably a one man band; it would be unreasonable for Sun to talk to *every* customer, from the biggest customer with 50,000 licences down to someone like me who is merely running their free, fortnightly build of Solaris.

I wonder if the original poster gets pissed off because McDonalds head off doesn't ring him back about whether or not a new burger they've designed is a good product.

And what does having the latest version of Gnome have to do with Trusted Extensions? I suppose if we dissected RedHat Enterprise Linux, we would find equally "ancient" software as well. Considering the Common Criteria evaluation process can take up to a year it would not surprise me at all that what is bundled with either OS is not "up to date", and considering the very nature of how each OS is to be used, would you want bleeding edge and untested software as part of the OS just so you can have your toys?

His conclusion is because it doesn't have the latest, bleeding edge desktop, it is obviously flawed - if one were running a server, one wouldn't care about whether or not it has the latest bleeding edge software - the bigger concern would be things like uptime and security - if you want to have 'more modern' software, there is a pretty good archive over at blastwave.org

If he was going to use the server and needed high uptime, he would purchase a Sun support contract, and if were important enough, he would be able to lodge requests directly to Sun for a required feature/bug fix specific to a problem he has encountered.

I've pointed out that he can use SX:CE or SXDE; but the original poster doesn't want a solution, heck, I doubt he even wants to use Solaris - its a more of an attempt by someone to gain attention for the sake of attention.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by segedunum on Sun 25th Mar 2007 12:29 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
RE[6]: Interesting tidbit
by bservies on Sun 25th Mar 2007 15:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Interesting tidbit"
bservies Member since:
2006-05-27

>> Hmm, more correctly; he is probably a one man band; it would be
>> unreasonable for Sun to talk to *every* customer

> You're extremely tetchy about this for some unapparent reason. That
> is not what I said at all. I said that customers are never consulted over
> these things at all - you simply get what software is put down to you.

I am an engineer for Sun and you are wrong. Both in general and specially in the case of this article.

Voice of the Customer reports are everywhere and taken very seriously. They drive requirements (and, therefore, features) in all of our products. The directive to do so comes from our CEO and if you read his blog you will soon see he spends much of his time collecting customer feedback. That feedback is not just communicated to us through his blog either.

Jonathans' blog
bogs.sun.com/jonathan

Listening to the customer and solving their problems is why our product portfolio is stronger than it has been in years. They see that, and are buying more of our products, which is why we are profitable again.

In the particular case of this article, customer requirements and feedback from them (in the form of EAL certification) are the only reason the features exist in the first place.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by segedunum on Sun 25th Mar 2007 12:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Well I guess Sun wouldn't consult you since you are not a customer

Neither Sun nor anyone else consults anyone over these decisions. That was the point. You get what's put down to you.

And what does having the latest version of Gnome have to do with Trusted Extensions?

Have a look at what I replied to.

Considering the Common Criteria evaluation process can take up to a year it would not surprise me at all that what is bundled with either OS is not "up to date", and considering the very nature of how each OS is to be used, would you want bleeding edge

I believe the discussion started with the word desktop.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by jmcp on Sun 25th Mar 2007 12:23 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
jmcp Member since:
2006-08-06

Actually, you are quite wrong in your assertion. For the sorts of customers which purchase CC-certified OS environments (Govt orgs and companies which mandate highly secure computing), the vendors *do* go and find out what the customers want.

In great detail.

Then it's set in stone, because that is what that sort of customers want - a dependable, CC-certified environment. It's not easy to get CC certification, and nor should it be.

Just because somebody wants to talk about the desktop environment doesn't mean you can ignore or dismiss the very valid requirements which go into providing a Trusted environment.

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: Interesting tidbit
by broken_symlink on Sun 25th Mar 2007 13:48 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Interesting tidbit"
broken_symlink Member since:
2005-07-06

Finally someone said it! That was exactly what i was going to say after reading the whole thread.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Interesting tidbit
by SEJeff on Sun 25th Mar 2007 20:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting tidbit"
SEJeff Member since:
2005-11-05

Just for the record, you *know* that Sun is one of the biggest Corporate gnome backers in existance, right?

They footed the bill for fulltime usability experts to write the original gnome 2.0 HIG (Human Interface Guidelines).

Also, Sun has the Trusted version of Gnome that supports their new Trusted Extensions with window manager level labelling. That is very impressive. The work to port those changes over to another DE (such as KDE) would basicly be a fork.

It doesn't make much sense for Sun to use anything other than gnome seeing as how that is the DE most of their engineers work on.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Interesting tidbit
by flanque on Sun 25th Mar 2007 00:52 UTC in reply to "Interesting tidbit"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

I haven't done any extensive research on numbers, but I'd be of the mind that the vast majority of Solaris installs are shell only, and so GNOME isn't required.

Solaris is meant for the server, not the desktop.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Interesting tidbit
by abraxas on Sun 25th Mar 2007 02:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting tidbit"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

I haven't done any extensive research on numbers, but I'd be of the mind that the vast majority of Solaris installs are shell only, and so GNOME isn't required.

Solaris is meant for the server, not the desktop.


Exactly my point. If SUN keeps thinking this way there won't be a server offering either.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Interesting tidbit
by dagw on Mon 26th Mar 2007 15:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting tidbit"
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

Solaris has always been both a server and a workstation OS. In fact up untill relativly recently Solaris workstation where among the most powerful workstations money could buy.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Interesting tidbit
by Doc Pain on Sun 25th Mar 2007 02:04 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting tidbit"
Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

"Solaris is meant for the server, not the desktop."

If you consider reality, this is not true anymore. Still I agree if you say Solaris is installed mainly on servers, this is true. It is true as well that Solaris is aimed at the professional customers, not at the home users. But Solaris is already on the desktop. Maybe it does not have an impressive usage share, but it has the capabilities to serve as a workstation (desktop) OS.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Interesting tidbit
by Cass on Mon 26th Mar 2007 01:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting tidbit"
Cass Member since:
2006-03-17

"Solaris is meant for the server, not the desktop"

Funny that considering Sun themselves run Solaris and Gnome 2.whatever on the desktop just now, nearly all users in Sun, with the exception of some of the mobile Sales force run Solaris/Gnome every day as the primary desktop and shock horror actually get the work done ... it runs very nicely thanks very much .. ok it may not be the most up2date version of the DE on offer but it works and works well .. Sun seem to be getting along ok, dont ya think ?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Interesting tidbit
by abraxas on Sun 25th Mar 2007 02:00 UTC in reply to "Interesting tidbit"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

There is nothing stopping you from downloading OpenSolaris Express Community Edition or OpenSolaris Express Developer Edition; both B60 and 02/2007 have GNOME 2.16.1 with their respective distributions.

That's not exactly something anyone with any amount of IT knowhow is going to suggest using in a production environment.

its no more 'bleeding edge' to use OpenSolaris as it is to use Fedora - infact, my limited experience so far with B60 has shown that it is more reliable and stable than Linux.

Fedora isn't going to be used in a production environment anytime soon either.

Oh, and why won't they update GNOME? because their customers don't want it to be done - also, if you look through the changes, the massive changes they would have to make to Solaris 10 would be so large, it would be the worlds largest jumbo patch - there is a tonne of technology which the new GNOME desktop relies on which isn't provided with Solaris 10; HAL support for instance, which relies on changes further down.

Really? Customer's don't want updates and new features? You know this for a fact? As far as HAL and other Linux specific technologies, that matters little to customers. As we in the Linux camp have heard for years, customer's don't care what reasons you give them they don't want excuses they want solutions.

If Sun makes a decision not to do something with their product, 9/10 there is normally a damn good reason, and *shock* *horror* they might have consulted with customers whether the justification for a massive disruption was worth it - customers obviously said no.

Solaris has very little in the way of desktop share anywhere. My point, which seems to have been missed, is that in today's world if you want the server you're going to have to offer an adequate desktop solution also. Windows has both, with good marketshare in both areas. Apple has entered the server market recently and Linux has been working on the Desktop for years. SUN doesn't seem to be doing much with their pitiful offering.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Interesting tidbit
by Robert Escue on Sun 25th Mar 2007 02:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting tidbit"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Obviously you haven't heard about Ben Rockwood of Joyent Systems using OpenSolaris for production systems:

http://joyent.com/accelerator

I don't know how many servers you manage, but I manage a bunch of them just fine without a GUI. Try pulling KDE over a serial link sometime and tell me how that works out for you. When you start playing with real servers (and tha tincludes x86 machines like HP's DL and BL series), you have the ability to manage the machine through an iLO port (something similar to Sun's LOM port).

And if you were actually on topic (which you're not) one of the things discussed in the article is how Sun provides MLS graphical desktops, which RedHat Enterprise Linux doesn't.

Your comment about a server OS having to have a graphical desktop in order to be successful is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read here! Thanks for the laugh! Send that to IBM and HP, I'm sure their engineers for AIX and HP-UX will get a nice chuckle out of that statement too.

And what is so pitiful about Solaris?

Edited 2007-03-25 02:30

Reply Score: 5

v RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by Windows Sucks on Sun 25th Mar 2007 03:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by taos on Sun 25th Mar 2007 06:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
taos Member since:
2005-11-16

"I am sure that is why both IBM and HP seem to be making more money on linux then on AIX and HP-UX."

Thanks for the laugh! Really, LOL!

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by Robert Escue on Sun 25th Mar 2007 07:39 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Yeah, I work for the Government as well, except some of us get to work with the bleeding edge stuff.

And what exactly is "old and played out" about Solaris? I can't wait to hear this considering the last line of your comment "Put all the solaris tools software etc on the Linux kernel." If Solaris is "played out", then why would you want those tools?

Reply Score: 3

v RE[6]: Interesting tidbit
by Windows Sucks on Sun 25th Mar 2007 12:28 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Interesting tidbit"
RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by djst on Sun 25th Mar 2007 09:39 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
djst Member since:
2005-08-07

Your comment about a server OS having to have a graphical desktop in order to be successful is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read here! Thanks for the laugh! Send that to IBM and HP, I'm sure their engineers for AIX and HP-UX will get a nice chuckle out of that statement too.

And what is so pitiful about Solaris?


I think you're missing the real point of the original poster here. The point, which is rather valid, is that in order to become successful in terms of number of users (specifically technology enthusiasts like myself) to test Solaris instead of Linux, they have to work harder to provide a more up-to-date graphical environment. I think there is a closer correlation between the success on the desktop (with regular users and developers like myself) and the server (with corporations and organizations as the main users) than many people would like to think.

By attracting the technology enthusiasts and early adopters, you pave the way for the really important customers from a corporate point of view. By the way, I think Sun is getting this already. Otherwise they wouldn't spend so much effort on making OpenSolaris Express and hiring Ian Murdock. I think it will not be long until I try OpenSolaris out myself.

If you think people posting are clueless because you don't agree with them, try applying a nicer attitude towards them and help them by explaining things the way you see it instead of accusing them of being off-topic and thanking them for good laughs. It's not friendly.

Edited 2007-03-25 09:42

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Interesting tidbit
by delewis on Sun 25th Mar 2007 11:32 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Interesting tidbit"
delewis Member since:
2007-03-09

Stop, just stop right there, and answer this rather simple question (which mind you, a lot of osnews.com users don't seem to be bothering to answer, either). What on earth makes you think that Sun would prioritize the usability (your definition of usability -- higher versioning -- is wrong, but we'll use it anyway) of the desktop over the stability and consistency of the environment as a whole? Not to burst your bubble, but Sun isn't out to make Solaris the greatest desktop environment. They're out there to produce an operating system that is both stable, consistent, and can be continually improved because of the existence of those stable, consistent interfaces. I couldn't care less that Solaris 10 ships with a 3 year old version of Gnome. What I do care about (not listed in order of importance) is:

(1) interface consistency. Sun guarantees me interfaces marked "stable" will be there for awhile.

(2) binary compatibility. I can take a binary that I compiled on Solaris 2.5.1 and run it on Solaris Express. If I can't, its a bug.

(3) observability tools. With tools like DTrace, a real kernel debugger, and so fourth, the de-mystification of what my systems are doing is possible.

(4) storage. Solaris (like any other half-decent operating system) has consistent naming, excellent support for fibre-channel devices (that's shown in the quality of the tools, like luxadm), the ability to setup root mirroring with SVM in your sleep, IO multipathing, and of course, ZFS.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by abraxas on Sun 25th Mar 2007 13:08 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

Your comment about a server OS having to have a graphical desktop in order to be successful is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read here! Thanks for the laugh! Send that to IBM and HP, I'm sure their engineers for AIX and HP-UX will get a nice chuckle out of that statement too.

Your reading comprehension skills are very poor. I never said that a server should have a GUI. NEVER. In fact I hate when a server has a GUI. All mine are command line only. What I'm saying is that the desktop is becoming more important everyday and the big players in the desktop market are also in the server market slowly chipping away at big iron share. If the big iron wants to keep customers they are going to have to offer integrated desktop solutions to go along with their server offerings.

What I'm saying isn't outrageous at all. It's common sense. Microsoft can sell you an end to end solution because they own the desktop market and do very well in the server market. Novell, Apple, and soon Redhat will also offer you an end to end solution. SUN doens't have en end to end solution and they are going to have a hard time unless they start focusing on it. Personally I don't think OpenSolaris is the answer. That's not an integrated solution.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by Cass on Mon 26th Mar 2007 01:14 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
Cass Member since:
2006-03-17

When you start playing with real servers (and tha tincludes x86 machines like HP's DL and BL series), you have the ability to manage the machine through an iLO port (something similar to Sun's LOM port).


HaHaHa, give me a break, ILO has to be the worst pile of steaming crap i have ever had the displeasure to use when remotley managing a server, with the issues i have had with it i would have been as well shouting my commands at the box ... "Computer .. reboot" .. No offence man, but ILO and that godforsaken web interface should not be mentioned in the same breath as LOM and the Sparc Serial console, system controllers, etc .. they actually work 99% of the time ... In my exp ILO works 50% of the time and im being generous with that number .... god i hate ILO .... not that it shows too much i hope, i was trying to remain objective ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Interesting tidbit
by anonymous_coward on Sun 25th Mar 2007 09:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting tidbit"
anonymous_coward Member since:
2005-11-15

Fedora isn't going to be used in a production environment anytime soon either.

Well, you're wrong:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Servers
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://kernel.org

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Interesting tidbit
by abraxas on Sun 25th Mar 2007 13:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Interesting tidbit"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

Fedora isn't going to be used in a production environment anytime soon either.

Well, you're wrong:


You're right. I didn't phrase my statement quite right. Fedora and other free distros are used for web servers and things like that but when a fortune 500 company like the one I work for wants to roll out new clients and/or servers Fedora isn't an option. OpenSolaris isn't an option either.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Interesting tidbit
by evangs on Mon 26th Mar 2007 11:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting tidbit"
evangs Member since:
2005-07-07

So why are you so bothered about a 3 year old version of GNOME? After all, who installs bleeding edge software on their production machines?

Reply Score: 4

RE: Interesting tidbit
by Robert Escue on Sun 25th Mar 2007 02:28 UTC in reply to "Interesting tidbit"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

And how is this on topic? What difference does it make which GUI Sun uses? Is this the only thing you can come up with because you don't know anything about MLS?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Interesting tidbit
by evangs on Mon 26th Mar 2007 11:21 UTC in reply to "Interesting tidbit"
evangs Member since:
2005-07-07

3 years old is hardly a problem. Windows XP was 5 (6?) years old before it even got updated. Even then, the benefits of the improvements are debatable.

Reply Score: 2

OK lets start over
by abraxas on Sun 25th Mar 2007 13:37 UTC
abraxas
Member since:
2005-07-07

Let me restate some things because people are getting all bent out of shape because of things I said and did not say. Words are being put into my mouth and ideas into my head that I never started with.

First of all I apologize for this discussion monopolizing this thread because the article is actually a very interesting and informative comparison. I wasn't trying to set off a flamewar.

My point was about market share and what it is going to take to gain and retain server marketshare in the future. I didn't say servers needed a GUI or needed to be bleeding edge. What I did say is that more and more server marketshare is going to be tied to desktop marketshare. There are many reasons for this. People prefer an end to end solution and disregarding Microsoft no one else offered a viable end to end solution until relatively recently but now Apple, Novell, and Redhat do. This is the wave of the future, one that Microsoft was smart enough to have been riding for years.

Feel free to disagree with me but just don't put words in my mouth. I have no problem accepting someones opinion that this is not the case and desktop share is completely unrelated to server share but all this talk about graphical interfaces on a server and Fedora serving web pages is not relevant to what I was saying at all. It's all just a neat little trap, attempting to avoid the real issues that I mention, which is basically this...SUN does not have a viable desktop solution to offer corporations and therefor will lose server marketshare eventually as software vendors like Novell and Redhat offer end to end solutions that can replace current Solaris servers and Windows desktops, or any other number of configurations, with a unified solution.

Reply Score: 4

RE: OK lets start over
by Robert Escue on Sun 25th Mar 2007 16:06 UTC in reply to "OK lets start over"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

And I still think your view is ridiculous. I can drive about 30 minutes down the road to a major ship builder (they make aircraft carriers) and they use AIX for workstations. I have no idea how much experience you have with AIX, but the last time I used 5L 5.2 it was equally "deficient" as Solaris when it comes to "desktop features". The applications they use drive what desktop they use, just as the apps drive it in most installations.

Your idea of a "unified solution" is equally ridiculous, when was the last time you speced out gear for an enterprise installation? I just recently put together two packages for a learning management system deployment and the last thing that came up is what GUI was going to be used for the dsesktop! It makes no difference what desktop you are using because an increasing number of applications are web based. The choice comes down to what can be supported by the enterprise based on skill set and existing hardware and software. In the vast majority of large scale installations, the client of choice is Windows.

Sun does have a desktop solution, a corporate desktop. It might not be what a home user or a Linux user thinks a desktop should be, but it's there. And before you bring up the tired argument of lack of hardware support, anyone who is going to buy Solaris (or AIX, HP-UX, Linux or Windows for that matter) is going to buy the hardware that supports the software. In other words if I am going to use Solaris for a desktop, then I am going to buy Sun workstations. That means all the features such as sound will work without any problems.

Now, let's get back on topic shall we?

Edited 2007-03-25 16:22

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: OK lets start over
by abraxas on Sun 25th Mar 2007 17:43 UTC in reply to "RE: OK lets start over"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

And I still think your view is ridiculous. I can drive about 30 minutes down the road to a major ship builder (they make aircraft carriers) and they use AIX for workstations. I have no idea how much experience you have with AIX, but the last time I used 5L 5.2 it was equally "deficient" as Solaris when it comes to "desktop features". The applications they use drive what desktop they use, just as the apps drive it in most installations.

You're view is especially ridiculous. I don't see people running and jumping to have AIX on the desktop. You're correct that people generally run an OS they need to run their applications but Linux is taking over UNIX marketshare and modern applications are for Linux now.

Your idea of a "unified solution" is equally ridiculous, when was the last time you speced out gear for an enterprise installation?

Different departments have different needs. What exactly does one have to use Solaris for over Linux though? There is very little that Solaris can do that Linux cannot. If clients are needed then why take a Solaris offer with a terrible client solution when you can have an excellent server and client solution with Linux.

Look. Solaris isn't going to be wiped off the face of the planet tomorrow because of this but their marketshare will slowly erode and they will not be able to compete with Microsoft or Novell or Redhat in many different areas because JDS is such a lame attempt at a desktop.

Sun does have a desktop solution, a corporate desktop. It might not be what a home user or a Linux user thinks a desktop should be, but it's there.

Sure they have a desktop, that competes with no one. People are using Windows, OSX, and even Linux in large installations on the client side. This doesn't happen with Solaris and won't unless they make it look like they actually care about the desktop, which to my knowledge they don't, and it is my opinion that it will hurt them.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: OK lets start over
by Robert Escue on Sun 25th Mar 2007 18:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OK lets start over"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

I am not the one who (1) started a flame war about GUI's in a discussion about two operating systems and their differences in handling Multiple Level Security and (2) has yet to make a compelling argument about the future of any OS based on a desktop. Only Linux zealots seem to be hung up on this desktop nonsense, as I have stated ad nauseum Sun is not trying to capture the desktop market, and for that matter neither is RedHat (we use both at work). And while RedHat offers a desktop OS, I am sure they are not even contemplating going after large installations of Windows (we have over 4,000 desktops). When RedHat comes to talk to us, it is about servers (where they make a lot more money).

Just as I asked you to backup your previous comments (which you have failed to do), you make more statements based on your opinion about the future of Solaris based on its desktop. Do you have any meaningful data to backup this statement "Solaris isn't going to be wiped off the face of the planet tomorrow because of this but their marketshare will slowly erode and they will not be able to compete with Microsoft or Novell or Redhat in many different areas because JDS is such a lame attempt at a desktop." or are you just trolling as before?

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: OK lets start over
by abraxas on Mon 26th Mar 2007 05:00 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OK lets start over"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

I am not the one who (1) started a flame war about GUI's in a discussion about two operating systems and their differences in handling Multiple Level Security and (2) has yet to make a compelling argument about the future of any OS based on a desktop.

I didn't start this flamewar. I wasn't even trying to steer the discussion towards Solaris on the desktop. I tried to make that clear. The people who started the flamewar were people like you who try to put words in my mouth.

Only Linux zealots seem to be hung up on this desktop nonsense, as I have stated ad nauseum Sun is not trying to capture the desktop market, and for that matter neither is RedHat (we use both at work). And while RedHat offers a desktop OS, I am sure they are not even contemplating going after large installations of Windows (we have over 4,000 desktops). When RedHat comes to talk to us, it is about servers (where they make a lot more money).

Oh nevermind then. You obviously missed the point if you are still jabbering on about how SUN isn't trying to get on the desktop, I stated that they don't care about the desktop already, but they should. For some reason SUN fanatics are overly sensitive on this site and respond to every criticism in a defensive way.

Just as I asked you to backup your previous comments (which you have failed to do), you make more statements based on your opinion about the future of Solaris based on its desktop. Do you have any meaningful data to backup this statement "Solaris isn't going to be wiped off the face of the planet tomorrow because of this but their marketshare will slowly erode and they will not be able to compete with Microsoft or Novell or Redhat in many different areas because JDS is such a lame attempt at a desktop." or are you just trolling as before?

To be a troll you have to try to get people in an uproar. I didn't do that. If anyone is guilty of being a troll its you and others like you who freak out anytime anyone says anything bad about SUN or Solaris. I stated that my post was an opinion and I gave my reasoning but you were too busy getting your panties in a bunch about SUN being criticized to actually read my opinion on why the lack of a viable desktop will hurt SUN in the end. I never said it would kill them but it will hurt them.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: OK lets start over
by abraxas on Mon 26th Mar 2007 05:01 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OK lets start over"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

I am not the one who (1) started a flame war about GUI's in a discussion about two operating systems and their differences in handling Multiple Level Security and (2) has yet to make a compelling argument about the future of any OS based on a desktop.

I didn't start this flamewar. I wasn't even trying to steer the discussion towards Solaris on the desktop. I tried to make that clear. The people who started the flamewar were people like you who try to put words in my mouth.

Only Linux zealots seem to be hung up on this desktop nonsense, as I have stated ad nauseum Sun is not trying to capture the desktop market, and for that matter neither is RedHat (we use both at work). And while RedHat offers a desktop OS, I am sure they are not even contemplating going after large installations of Windows (we have over 4,000 desktops). When RedHat comes to talk to us, it is about servers (where they make a lot more money).

Oh nevermind then. You obviously missed the point if you are still jabbering on about how SUN isn't trying to get on the desktop, I stated that they don't care about the desktop already, but they should. For some reason SUN fanatics are overly sensitive on this site and respond to every criticism in a defensive way.

Just as I asked you to backup your previous comments (which you have failed to do), you make more statements based on your opinion about the future of Solaris based on its desktop. Do you have any meaningful data to backup this statement "Solaris isn't going to be wiped off the face of the planet tomorrow because of this but their marketshare will slowly erode and they will not be able to compete with Microsoft or Novell or Redhat in many different areas because JDS is such a lame attempt at a desktop." or are you just trolling as before?

To be a troll you have to try to get people in an uproar. I didn't do that. If anyone is guilty of being a troll its you and others like you who freak out anytime anyone says anything bad about SUN or Solaris. I stated that my post was an opinion and I gave my reasoning but you were too busy getting your panties in a bunch about SUN being criticized to actually read my opinion on why the lack of a viable desktop will hurt SUN in the end. I never said it would kill them but it will hurt them.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: OK lets start over
by Robert Escue on Mon 26th Mar 2007 12:04 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: OK lets start over"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

That really takes some nerve to start something then deny you started it because you think your opinion isn't a troll! That's rich. And calling me a troll, nice attemmpt at redirection. Too bad it isn't working.

No I didn't miss the point about desktops. In light of everything that is going on with Solaris it seems the only avenue of attack that Linux zealots have is this desktop nonsense. Can you actually point to some piece of Sun literature where they are targeting anything other than a corporate desktop with JDS? You have consistently failed to produce any meaningful facts to backup anything you have said. And unfortunately, your opnion is not fact.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: OK lets start over
by Arun on Mon 26th Mar 2007 18:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: OK lets start over"
Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

I didn't start this flamewar. I wasn't even trying to steer the discussion towards Solaris on the desktop. I tried to make that clear. The people who started the flamewar were people like you who try to put words in my mouth.

Yes you did, This is exactly what you said.

One thing that was mentioned that really caught my eye, even though it has nothing to do with security, is that Solaris uses a 3 year old version of GNOME! You could always use CDE but that's like using a 15 year old version of XFCE. I guess SUN doesn't plan on updating GNOME for Java Desktop until their next release of Solaris. If SUN continues to go this route they are ALWAYS going to have an older, staler graphical interface compared to competing Linux vendors. They don't have a chance on the desktop no matter which vendor is chosen for server side duties and without the desktop Solaris can never fully compete with Microsoft or Linux.

Most companies don't change UIs mid release.

RHEL desktop v4 shipped with Gnome 2.8. RHEL v5 will ship with 2.16 it was just announced March 14 2007. Gnome 2.8 was released in sept 2004. 2.6 that ships with Solaris 10 was released in March 2004. So until recently even Redhat shipped and almost 2.5 year old Gnome release!

MacOS X 10.4.x has the same UI in multiple updates.
Windows XP had the same UI multiple updates.

Each of these will get or has gotten a new UI in the "next release". This is standard industry practice. Unlike your opinion highlighted in bold.

Solaris 10 was released more than 2 years ago. So it is understandable that they shipped with a Gnome version of that vintage. Solaris Express has 2.16 and will probably ship with 2.18. So Solaris express is already on par with Redhat's latest release.

Basically the post that started this flamewar made no particular point other than saying that Sun is following industry standard practice of not upsetting customers with massive changes in an update patch.

I would think twice before installing a huge change to my system mid production. So customers like things to be static until the next release. At which point they evaluate the next release for months before deploying it.

And the conclusion drawn that Sun needs the latest bleeding edge UI to compete with Linux in the enterprise market is pure fallacy. Note the RHEL example above.

Edited 2007-03-26 18:43

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: OK lets start over
by 25bravo on Sun 25th Mar 2007 20:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OK lets start over"
25bravo Member since:
2006-01-04

Seems like a waste of a discussion, but I'll throw my two cents into the charade.

I work for the military. We use Solaris in a few different places. For desktops and laptops, we use Windows. For mission critical devices that need user interfaces, we'll use Solaris, Red Hat, etc.

Each mission critical device is a purpose built machine, designed to execute nothing other than the application it was built for. There is a box that coordinates artillary. There is a box that coordinates unit locations on a map of the theater. There are boxes designed just to provide video feeds from a camera and a simple interface to control that camera (seen Fedora on one of those). There are hundreds of UI driven appliances across the theater built like this.

And the users never actually see the desktop. All they see is the application. Most often, the user is locked out from the desktop. Users aren't even allowed touch or see a console. That's actually the last thing we'd ever want a grunt having access to.

Point is, if a company can tame the complexities of an OS so that, for a given application, they can make it look as simple as a paper-clip or a hole-puncher, the military will pay a billion dollars for it.

Here's an interesting example: The unit-location-mapping appliance I spoke of earlier is basically a glorified GPS mapping device. One can battle track many units all over the battle field with it, down to the squad level. You can even send instant messages over it. Solaris had always ran on that box but just recently lost that contract to Red Hat. One day we just received these Red Hat HD images and we were told to image all the hard drives with the new Red Hat OS. Guess what... The user interface is exactly the same. There's one new widget there, but everything else is exactly the same. I think they're still even using fvwm, which I see on most other UI driven appliances in theater as well.

And the lesson is, yea, if your client is the US military, you're going to bend over backwards to create any appliance they want, under whatever terms they want, because they are going to pay more handsomely than anyone else in the world.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: OK lets start over
by SEJeff on Sun 25th Mar 2007 21:08 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OK lets start over"
SEJeff Member since:
2005-11-05

Here's an interesting example: The unit-location-mapping appliance I spoke of earlier is basically a glorified GPS mapping device.

Gotta love the FBCB2.

When you talk about sexy military machinery, some people don't believe you so you might throw out a few links to it:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/fbcb2.htm
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ELEC_Blue_Force_Tracker_...

I remember playing with the FBCB2 and getting a real kick out of it running Solaris X86 and fvwm95. I flew the Shadow 200 UAV (Remote Controlled Spy Planes)and our RVT (Remote Video Terminal) ran a mostly stock version of Redhat Linux 9 with a custom Kernel and some special hardware.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: OK lets start over
by 25bravo on Sun 25th Mar 2007 20:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OK lets start over"
25bravo Member since:
2006-01-04

Seems like a waste of a discussion, but I'll throw my two cents into the charade.

I work for the military. We use Solaris in a few different places. For desktops and laptops, we use Windows. For mission critical devices that need user interfaces, we'll use Solaris, Red Hat, etc.

Each mission critical device is a purpose built machine, designed to execute nothing other than the application it was built for. There is a box that coordinates artillary. There is a box that coordinates unit locations on a map of the theater. There are boxes designed just to provide video feeds from a camera and a simple interface to control that camera (seen Fedora on one of those). There are hundreds of UI driven appliances across the theater built like this.

And the users never actually see the desktop. All they see is the application. Most often, the user is locked out from the desktop. Users aren't even allowed touch or see a console. That's actually the last thing we'd ever want a grunt having access to.

Point is, if a company can tame the complexities of an OS so that, for a given application, they can make it look as simple as a paper-clip or a hole-puncher, the military will pay a billion dollars for it.

Here's an interesting example: The unit-location-mapping appliance I spoke of earlier is basically a glorified GPS mapping device. One can battle track many units all over the battle field with it, down to the squad level. You can even send instant messages over it. Solaris had always ran on that box but just recently lost that contract to Red Hat. One day we just received these Red Hat HD images and we were told to image all the hard drives with the new Red Hat OS. Guess what... The user interface is exactly the same. There's one new widget there, but everything else is exactly the same. I think they're still even using fvwm, which I see on most other UI driven appliances in theater as well.

And the lesson is, yea, if your client is the US military, you're going to bend over backwards to create any appliance they want, under whatever terms they want, because they are going to pay more handsomely than anyone else in the world.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: OK lets start over
by Robert Escue on Sun 25th Mar 2007 21:52 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OK lets start over"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Here's my two cents on very deep pockets within the military. Before I retired the Navy started to look real hard at digital imaging, and my last deployment on the USS Nimitz we fielded a system called PIES (Photographic Imagery Editing System). It was a juiced up SPARC 2 system with (this is 1993 mind you) 32 MB of RAM, a 150 MB tape drive, a hard disk of a size I can't remember along with two Microtek scanners and a Kodak digital printer, price about $250,000.00.

The overall system was slow due to the limited amount of memory and storage, scanning an 8x10 at 24-bit color took 8 minutes. But the thing could survive a hit from a RPG though (just kidding). If nothing else it was an interesting experiment.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: OK lets start over
by abraxas on Sun 25th Mar 2007 17:42 UTC in reply to "OK lets start over"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

Wrong thread.

Edited 2007-03-25 17:43

Reply Score: 2

Inner Circle
by hylas on Mon 26th Mar 2007 17:35 UTC
hylas
Member since:
2005-07-10

I received this just this morning, it has facts and everything, it's got fanboy rants and reasons why you should join their club.
Just like every other serious server/desktop innovator, Sun, one of the oldest, if not the truest OSs (BSD) has decided to actually participate and really innovate.
It's about time.

I, for one, welcome our new SUN overlords.
(had to say it)
:-)

Inner Circle Newsletter:

http://www.sun.com/emrkt/innercircle/newsletter/0307ic.html

Unrelated Bonus Content:

http://kernelthread.com/projects/#VSOL

P.S.
All the chair-throwing and name calling over at the Apple/Microsoft threads got nothing on you guys.
Remember the one that has the best facts wins.
... aaaaand break!

hylas

EDIT
Added Unrelated Bonus Content..

Edited 2007-03-26 17:46

Reply Score: 1