Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 20th Sep 2011 22:30 UTC
Windows Why, would you look at this. All this time we were expecting Apple to be the first one to flip the switch and limit desktop users to Mac App Store applications and turn Mac OS X into a walled garden, but in fact, Microsoft will be the first to flip this switch. As it turns out, Metro applications can only be installed through the Windows Store - with sideloading only for enterprises and developers (this doesn't apply to legacy applications).
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Ugh
by tyrel on Tue 20th Sep 2011 22:52 UTC
tyrel
Member since:
2009-04-03

Ugh.

Reply Score: 13

RE: Ugh
by Gullible Jones on Tue 20th Sep 2011 23:00 UTC in reply to "Ugh"
Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

Yeah, I think that about says it.

Reply Score: 9

money win
by winter on Tue 20th Sep 2011 23:22 UTC
winter
Member since:
2005-08-09

Apple has demonstrated very well that the application store model, where they take a cut for simple distributing the applications is a money win. Actually who was the first to do this, because I know Steam is also very successful.

Reply Score: 2

RE: money win
by shmerl on Wed 21st Sep 2011 16:42 UTC in reply to "money win"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

It's a jail win. Those who like jails will appreciate.

Reply Score: 3

iTunes
by testman on Tue 20th Sep 2011 23:39 UTC
testman
Member since:
2007-10-15

My understanding is that iOS5 no longer needs iTunes to sync and activate so I don't think maintaining the application will be a priority for Apple, moving forward.

Reply Score: 4

RE: iTunes
by kristoph on Wed 21st Sep 2011 01:07 UTC in reply to "iTunes"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

iTunes is free anyway so this is not an issue for Apple. If Microsoft insisted on getting a cut of all in app purchases then that would be a problem.

Reply Score: 2

RE: iTunes
by Kroc on Wed 21st Sep 2011 12:17 UTC in reply to "iTunes"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

I have to laugh every time someone says iTunes is no longer required to sync.

Download a song from Amazon MP3.
How do you get it into iTunes on iOS, so you can play it?

Sync with iTunes.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: iTunes
by Alexco on Wed 21st Sep 2011 15:52 UTC in reply to "RE: iTunes"
Alexco Member since:
2006-05-25

Use iCloud...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: iTunes - icloud?
by jabbotts on Wed 21st Sep 2011 18:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: iTunes"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Last I read, Icloud is only available on osX machines which already have Itunes installed by default. The issue here is machines which do not have Itunes installed by default; can itunes_win32 users load content into there ithingy through Apple's hosted storage?

Having an itunes client and self-activation on the device should have been in place from the very start; at minimum, the iphone/itouch and anything more recent. This new/revolutionary/world-changing/never-been-done feature is long overdue.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: iTunes
by testman on Wed 21st Sep 2011 23:23 UTC in reply to "RE: iTunes"
testman Member since:
2007-10-15

Download a song from Amazon MP3.

Sadly, not an option in my country. My CD collection however - that would be problem.

Reply Score: 2

RE: iTunes
by zima on Tue 27th Sep 2011 23:59 UTC in reply to "iTunes"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Well in some relatively few and far between - but lucrative - markets, iTunes is probably bound to remain, for quite some time, also a major way to organize, listen, and buy music. Or at least, I imagine Apple would very much like that - and without the discussed interference from MS, of the type which Apple did to books in their Appstore.

Edited 2011-09-28 00:01 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Comment by jbauer
by jbauer on Tue 20th Sep 2011 23:52 UTC
jbauer
Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't consider Metro apps to be desktop applications anyway, so I don't really see a difference between this and Apple's approach.

I really hope MS is forcing the Metro UI in the developer preview just to get the ball rolling, because If they're thinking that we're all going to change our desktop applications for full screen glorified gadgets, then they've totally lost their minds.

Reply Score: 16

RE: Comment by jbauer
by WorknMan on Wed 21st Sep 2011 00:21 UTC in reply to "Comment by jbauer"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

I don't consider Metro apps to be desktop applications anyway, so I don't really see a difference between this and Apple's approach.


Yeah, these Microsoft Bob... I mean, Metro apps are probably going to be exclusive to tablets, and tech tards using them on desktops.

I'm not saying that forbidding side loading is a good thing, but irrelevant to those of us who actually know what side loading means, because we'll be using the real (eg - 'classic') desktop.

Edited 2011-09-21 00:22 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by jbauer
by kristoph on Wed 21st Sep 2011 00:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by jbauer"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

No, as Microsoft explain at the recent Build conference Metro is the future of Windows. Metro is built on WinRT which replaces the Win32 API which Microsoft now considers 'legacy'. There won't be any further updates to 'the desktop mode'.

The future is Metro. Metro is the future.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by jbauer
by WorknMan on Wed 21st Sep 2011 01:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by jbauer"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Metro is built on WinRT which replaces the Win32 API


What, you mean like how Win32 was considered legacy when the .NET framework came along? LOL, Metro ain't replacing shit, except maybe for grandma. Tell you what... whenever MS rewrites Visual Studio and their other core apps as pure Metro apps (WITHOUT having to fall back to their desktop counterparts to get any real functionality), then we'll talk about Win32 being legacy.

Edited 2011-09-21 01:26 UTC

Reply Score: 9

RE[4]: Comment by jbauer
by tomcat on Wed 21st Sep 2011 01:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by jbauer"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

What, you mean like how Win32 was considered legacy when the .NET framework came along? LOL, Metro ain't replacing shit, except maybe for grandma.


Oh, if you say so... LOL

Tell you what... whenever MS rewrites Visual Studio and their other core apps as pure Metro apps (WITHOUT having to fall back to their desktop counterparts to get any real functionality), then we'll talk about Win32 being legacy.


Your comments would lead me to believe that you never listened to any of the keynotes. MS said that there are content CONSUMPTION and content CREATION applications. Metro is designed for the former. And MS said there is a market for the latter. There are plenty of consumption apps that will continue to be sold (Photoshop, Premiere, MS Office, etc).

Edited 2011-09-21 01:50 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by jbauer
by WorknMan on Wed 21st Sep 2011 02:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by jbauer"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

MS said that there are content CONSUMPTION and content CREATION applications. Metro is designed for the former. And MS said there is a market for the latter. There are plenty of consumption apps that will continue to be sold (Photoshop, Premiere, MS Office, etc).


Right, when I said what I did, I was replying to the other guy who implied that Metro was supposed to replace Win32, which of course is a bunch of horse shit.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by jbauer
by modmans2ndcoming on Wed 21st Sep 2011 02:50 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by jbauer"
modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

WinRT is going to be replacing win32.

Did you even watch that they said at build?

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Comment by jbauer
by WorknMan on Wed 21st Sep 2011 03:18 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by jbauer"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Did you even watch that they said at build?


Yeah, they SAY a lot of things. As I said before, show me a pure, 100% Metro build of Visual Studio, and then we'll talk about how Win32 is going away ...

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by jbauer
by foregam on Wed 21st Sep 2011 18:14 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by jbauer"
foregam Member since:
2010-11-17

Your comments would lead me to believe that you never listened to any of the keynotes. MS said that there are content CONSUMPTION and content CREATION applications. Metro is designed for the former. And MS said there is a market for the latter. There are plenty of consumption apps that will continue to be sold (Photoshop, Premiere, MS Office, etc). [emphasis added]


Puh-leeze. Photoshop Tablet Edition with Metro UI might appear some day but MS will be announcing Windows 11 by then. API's come and go, Win32 is here to stay. It was declared 'legacy' long ago, yet .Net is just running alongside it and there's no hint of Win32 possibly disappearing. It took ages to remove DOS compatibility from NT, for goodness' sake. So don't hold your breath.

Edited 2011-09-21 18:17 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by jbauer
by tomcat on Wed 21st Sep 2011 20:00 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by jbauer"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Puh-leeze. Photoshop Tablet Edition with Metro UI might appear some day but MS will be announcing Windows 11 by then. API's come and go, Win32 is here to stay. It was declared 'legacy' long ago, yet .Net is just running alongside it and there's no hint of Win32 possibly disappearing. It took ages to remove DOS compatibility from NT, for goodness' sake. So don't hold your breath.


Read for comprehension. I said that content CONSUMPTION apps are Metro. Content CREATION apps are desktop. Hence, Win32 doesn't need to go anywhere. Sheez.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by jbauer
by foregam on Wed 21st Sep 2011 20:17 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by jbauer"
foregam Member since:
2010-11-17

Read for comprehension. [...] Sheez.

OK. Quote:

There are plenty of consumption apps that will continue to be sold (Photoshop, Premiere, MS Office, etc).

Somehow this makes me believe you classify Photoshop, Premiere and MS Office as CONSUMPTION, as you put it, apps. Call me suspicious.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by jbauer
by kristoph on Wed 21st Sep 2011 03:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by jbauer"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

What, you mean like how Win32 was considered legacy when the .NET framework came along?


.net was built on top of Win32; WinRT is built on top of the Windows kernel

Win32 won't go away for many years (if ever) but it will eventually become an optional install/won't be available on consumer versions of Windows/etc.

Microsoft needs a clean break from Win32 because they simply can't carry it (and the various services it depends on) onto tablets without compromising their performance and battery consumption.

It used to be that Microsoft could build 'for the future' because they had no competition but now that Apple and (to a much lesser extent) Google are eating their lunch on Tablets then need to cut loose the dead wood to stay competitive.

Even the tablet they gave out at build - which is sitting on my desk here - is like heavier than an iPad, it's got 3.5 hours of battery life, and it has a freaking fan! No one would buy that over an iPad.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Comment by jbauer
by WorknMan on Wed 21st Sep 2011 04:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by jbauer"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Win32 won't go away for many years (if ever) but it will eventually become an optional install/won't be available on consumer versions of Windows/etc.

Microsoft needs a clean break from Win32 because they simply can't carry it (and the various services it depends on) onto tablets without compromising their performance and battery consumption.


Win32 will be around for as long as Windows is. Why? Because without Win32 and all the apps that run on it, there would be no reason for Windows to exist anymore. In other words, Win32 practically IS Windows.

If MS decides to turn Windows into a tablet OS and drop Win32, then you can stick a fork in 'em, cuz they'll be done.

My guess is that even if they try to go that direction, they'll get about halfway there, and then change course when the 'next greatest thing' comes along, and then they'll just try and imitate that. Because that is exactly what MS is... a follower.

Edited 2011-09-21 04:53 UTC

Reply Score: 6

RE[3]: Comment by jbauer
by vault on Wed 21st Sep 2011 14:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by jbauer"
vault Member since:
2005-09-15

No, as Microsoft explain at the recent Build conference Metro is the future of Windows. Metro is built on WinRT which replaces the Win32 API which Microsoft now considers 'legacy'. There won't be any further updates to 'the desktop mode'.

The future is Metro. Metro is the future.

It doesn't really matter what Microsoft thinks. What matters is what people actually use. So let's see how the market reacts to that.

If enough developers stay with Win32 Microsoft can't ignore it and remove it in the next version, or they'll doom themselves and Windows 9 will be even bigger failure than Vista was.

So far it doesn't look good for Metro. It's nearly useless on the desktop and it restricts us to Windows Store. So, no, thanks.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by jbauer
by kristoph on Wed 21st Sep 2011 16:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by jbauer"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

It's not about the people that use it. It's about the developers who build it.

My company does not do Windows development at this time, only web and Apple, but I am planning to invest in additional developers to have some Metro apps at launch because it represents the biggest gold rush since the iOS App Store.

Many others are too, because it's just such a huge deal to be at the cusp of a new platform that will be deployed to tens of millions of devices annually.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by jbauer
by modmans2ndcoming on Wed 21st Sep 2011 02:48 UTC in reply to "Comment by jbauer"
modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

how are they not desktop apps?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by jbauer
by Lousewort on Thu 22nd Sep 2011 07:17 UTC in reply to "Comment by jbauer"
Lousewort Member since:
2006-09-12

They have totally lost their minds

Reply Score: 1

Win8 for Developers?
by CapEnt on Wed 21st Sep 2011 00:07 UTC
CapEnt
Member since:
2005-12-18

Do MS will release a Windows 8 Developer Edition or developers will need to use somekind of sandbox with Visual Studio to develop Metro apps?

Either way, it do not sound smart... indeed, looks very easy to convince a user to turn this restriction off by itself with some free helper app (or a malicious Trojan, whatever). A PC is not bootlocked cellphone or game console with advanced DRM capabilities build-in in hardware itself (and even then struggles to keep the edge).

Reply Score: 3

Concession
by Almafeta on Wed 21st Sep 2011 00:34 UTC
Almafeta
Member since:
2007-02-22

With such terrible design choices, it seems like Microsoft is conceding the desktop market entirely in Windows 8.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Concession
by kristoph on Wed 21st Sep 2011 00:36 UTC in reply to "Concession"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

to whom is it conceding the desktop?

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: Concession
by umad on Wed 21st Sep 2011 06:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Concession"
RE[2]: Concession
by jptros on Wed 21st Sep 2011 11:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Concession"
jptros Member since:
2005-08-26

You remember that "Year of the Linux Desktop" thing we joke about? Haha.

Reply Score: 2

money
by kristoph on Wed 21st Sep 2011 00:39 UTC
kristoph
Member since:
2006-01-01

Microsoft is doing this because it's a huge revenue win for them. They will take 30% of all app purchases and there are thousands of software companies selling software for windows which would add substantially to their bottom line.

]{

Edited 2011-09-21 00:40 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: money
by tomcat on Wed 21st Sep 2011 01:46 UTC in reply to "money"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Microsoft is doing this because it's a huge revenue win for them. They will take 30% of all app purchases and there are thousands of software companies selling software for windows which would add substantially to their bottom line.

]{


That isn't the sole reason. It's also about providing certain guarantees to users about the quality of the apps that they're running. If you download your apps from its store, you (in theory) have fewer worries about malware, poorly behaved apps (user reviews), etc.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: money
by kristoph on Wed 21st Sep 2011 03:23 UTC in reply to "RE: money"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

Sure, but you could still let people install apps from outside the store and simply state that the store is the preferred method and carries the Microsoft seal (or some such thing).

Reply Score: 4

MacMan
Member since:
2006-11-19

For some reason, I think this is an absolutely asinine word and just irritates me when I see it used everywhere.

FYI, I DO NOT have an iPhone, iPad, nor do I have any intention of upgrading to Lion on my Macs, and I now use Gnome3 80% of the time, so don't accuse me of being an Apple fan boy / apologist.

Reply Score: 1

kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

What does Lion have to do with anything?

Reply Score: 2

B. Janssen Member since:
2006-10-11

A "walled garden" is something we used to call a "golden cage". But since a golden cage has right in the name what it is, namely a cage, even the most retarded customer could guess what's going on. So some marketeer (or fanboy, I can't distinguish them anymore) decided to use the more deceptive walled garden. At least, that's my version of the story ;)

BTW, both terms originated in fairy tales, where the imprisoned prince/princess/animal/whatever had all possible comfort but longed for freedom anyway. The nerve...!

Edited 2011-09-21 11:10 UTC

Reply Score: 6

BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

For some reason, I think this is an absolutely asinine word and just irritates me when I see it used everywhere.


You're right, "gated community" is probably more accurate.

Reply Score: 4

Comment by Cody
by Cody Evans on Wed 21st Sep 2011 01:47 UTC
Cody Evans
Member since:
2009-08-14

...and that just killed windows 8 for me. All my excitement for windows 8 just disappeared. On the bright side, this saves me money by me NOT buying a windows 8 tablet, and I now have a nice big spot on a HDD to play with a new linux distro on... maybe even debian gnu/kFreebsd! So many non restrictive possibilites...

Reply Score: 9

RE: Comment by Cody
by laffer1 on Wed 21st Sep 2011 18:57 UTC in reply to "Comment by Cody"
laffer1 Member since:
2007-11-09

Debian kFreeBSD is not a Linux distro. It's a GNU software stack on a FreeBSD kernel. BSD kernel != Linux kernel.

Might I suggest using real FreeBSD rather than the GNU substandard version.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Comment by Cody
by tidux on Wed 21st Sep 2011 19:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Cody"
tidux Member since:
2011-08-13

While there's nothing substandard about the GNU userland, I have to agree that real FreeBSD, or NetBSD, or DragonFlyBSD, or OpenBSD would be the way to go to experience a "new" OS. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is just Debian with a different kernel.

Reply Score: 2

You do realize...
by tomcat on Wed 21st Sep 2011 01:51 UTC
tomcat
Member since:
2006-01-06

... that side-loading applications is possible, right? All that you need is a free downloadable copy of Visual Studio Express.

Reply Score: 3

RE: You do realize...
by shotsman on Wed 21st Sep 2011 08:22 UTC in reply to "You do realize..."
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

And exactly what percentage of users (outside this type of forum) will do that?

go on, think of a number?

My take is that Microsoft don't want the 'JoeSixpack' type of user to have a different experience on your tablet/desktop or phone.
IMHO, for the majority of users that is as far as they will go.
I think it is a laudable intention but frankly is doomed to fail. WP7 etc is far too late in the game. They will need to have some compelling USP's to get people to replace their i* or android devices with a windows one.
Oh wait, they do (at least in the US), the courts.
Frankly to acheive critical volumes they need either apple or google to disappear. That is not going to happen unless they get sued into oblivion. (triple damages anyone?)
This will raise a whole load of Antitrust issues. With the Wordperfect vs Microsoft case going to trial next month (dating from 1994/5) we can see how long that takes to get resolved.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: You do realize...
by tomcat on Wed 21st Sep 2011 19:57 UTC in reply to "RE: You do realize..."
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

And exactly what percentage of users (outside this type of forum) will do that?


Who cares. The point is that it can be done. Have some cheese with your whine.

Reply Score: 2

I take back what I said ...
by MacTO on Wed 21st Sep 2011 02:20 UTC
MacTO
Member since:
2006-09-21

Microsoft made it sound like WinRT was the future of Windows, and I'm sure that many small software developers will eagerly anticipate the coming of the Metro app store. Yet it is hard to see how companies like Apple and Adobe will accept this turn of events. Not only is Microsoft asking them for a 30% cut, but they are limited to a single retail channel. In some cases that channel will be controlled by their competitor. (Apple is the notable example here, yet there are many other businesses facing a similar problem.) Oh, and the old API that their existing applications are developed with still exists, so there is not a huge need to make the jump.

Something tells me that WinRT is going to be a very hard sell.

Reply Score: 4

RE: I take back what I said ...
by CapEnt on Wed 21st Sep 2011 12:15 UTC in reply to "I take back what I said ..."
CapEnt Member since:
2005-12-18

I don't know, i think that Adobe, Autodesk, etc... will all be restricted to a business only approach, thus marketing their products only for people that got their hands on a kind of "Windows 8 Professional".

This is not really a big problem for them anyway, since their usual customers lies in business field.

What is making me really curious about is how large game developers (Valve, ID, Square..) will react to this.

Reply Score: 2

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

I'm not sure if Steam already works like this but you could have the service manager such as Steam's client app install through the MS repository (er.. store). You then have the Steam client download/delete games like addon's or plugin bundles.

Reply Score: 2

Animal Farm meets App Development
by matthewp131 on Wed 21st Sep 2011 02:42 UTC
matthewp131
Member since:
2011-09-21

As soon as I read the article, I couldn't help but think of the closing of George Orwell's Animal Farm, one of my favorite books. When the pigs, leaders of the animals, have fully seceded from humans, the pigs eventually end up reverting back to the human tyranny again, so orwell closes: "Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
This is how I now see Apple and Microsoft.

Reply Score: 8

_xenu Member since:
2011-07-16

There exists a strange tradition of the workers marching past an old skull and calling each other "comrade." This will be suppressed.

Chilling.

Reply Score: 1

kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

Wow. Really? What are these companies doing to oppress developers (which I guess are the animals in this context)?

You know Metro is going to be like the biggest gold rush in the history of software development. Thousands of of developers, many of them in developing economies, are going to make a great deal of money and improve their living standards.

What do you fear will actually happen?

]{

Reply Score: 2

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

A few dozens of developers, in the "top seller"/"featured" part of the Windows Store, will make massive profit, whereas the others will have almost no visibility. Then Microsoft will introduce the "Windows Developer Program", in which freeware will be made at a loss...

Reply Score: 5

Gullible Jones
Member since:
2006-05-23

Computers that run Windows 8, and only Windows 8: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/5552.html

Walled garden app store. Computers that prevent you from downgrading or installing an alternative OS. Does Microsoft want to suck up all the world's money or something? Because it looks like they'll be having a good go at it.

Reply Score: 8

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Ugh. Well, it won't be in effect right away because PCs will ship with BIOS emulation during at least a few more years (you turn it on in the BIOS/EFI setup screen), but worth being concerned it is indeed.

Reply Score: 3

[UEFI/Secure Boot/TPM] It might be worse
by Lennie on Wed 21st Sep 2011 09:52 UTC
Lennie
Member since:
2007-09-22

It looks like Microsoft might be demanding from OEM's to use TPM to limit what can be installed on your new PC.

From a Linux website:

"Microsoft requires that machines conforming to the Windows 8 logo program and running a client version of Windows 8 ship with secure boot enabled. The two alternatives here are for Windows to be signed with a Microsoft key and for the public part of that key to be included with all systems, or alternatively for each OEM to include their own key and sign the pre-installed versions of Windows. The second approach would make it impossible to run boxed copies of Windows on Windows logo hardware, and also impossible to install new versions of Windows unless your OEM provided a new signed copy. The former seems more likely.

A system that ships with only OEM and Microsoft keys will not boot a generic copy of Linux."

http://lwn.net/Articles/459569/

Reply Score: 3

korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

If this is sold as a Windows copy protection measurement for Microsoft, couldn't you just make windows install media and the installed OS query the system for signatures without having to lock out other OSes...?

Reply Score: 2

Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

It is a slippery slope, they might eventually lock it down completely.

Then the Windows PC is locked down with TPM like an X-Box (which is also a Windows computer).

Reply Score: 2

bnolsen Member since:
2006-01-06

This wouldn't ultimately be in intel's interest considering they just want to sell processors and chipsets. Artificially limiting customers wouldn't be in their interest. Unless they thing thy can upcharge for more freedom.

Reply Score: 2

Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

Probably not, but it is Microsoft who made a requirement of this not Intel.

So most PCs with Windows pre-installed you can buy in the shop or from HP, Dell might be locked in the future.

I don't think it will happen, but it is a slippery slope if they all need to have support for it.

Reply Score: 2

n4cer Member since:
2005-07-06

To enable usage of non-Secure Boot OSes, Secure Boot may be disabled in the firmware just as the TPM can, and TPM is not required for Secure Boot.

It's not a license enforcement mechanism.
It's used to ensure the boot path is not compromised and protect against malware.

Reply Score: 1

Neolander Member since:
2010-03-08

Even in the most optimistic situation where "secure boot" (come on, give me a break, we're talking about booting Windows there) can be disabled, this has the interesting side-effect of making dual boots impractical.

Edited 2011-09-21 19:24 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Comment by Bounty
by Bounty on Wed 21st Sep 2011 16:35 UTC
Bounty
Member since:
2006-09-18

It's starting to look like Windows 8 = WebOS.

If Microsoft forces us into a phone operating system paradigm, how could they win? I can think of several ways they could lose, most of which they're hell bent on persuing.

At this rate us old windows guys will be running ReactOS or linux + wine in the future until we fully switch to linux/android. Or something else.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Wed 21st Sep 2011 16:36 UTC
shmerl
Member since:
2010-06-08

Microsoft was rotten. Now it rots even further.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by shmerl
by vitae on Wed 21st Sep 2011 18:31 UTC in reply to "Comment by shmerl"
vitae Member since:
2006-02-20
RE[2]: Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Wed 21st Sep 2011 21:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by shmerl"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Yes, and knowing that their "patents" are a pile of garbage, they also push NDA for their victims.

Reply Score: 2

AppStore + Tablet/iPad = Got U handcuffed
by docbop on Wed 21st Sep 2011 17:09 UTC
docbop
Member since:
2009-11-04

Be it Apple or MS I don't like this whole move to AppStores and then push tablets/iPad letting them limit what the devices can do. No WAY!

Apple's iTunes with constantly changing rules, app store that even only lets you install a FREE app once. Plus the Apple crap most don't notice like how they have their fingerprint in their hardware and get funky when you don't use Apple monitors, batteries, mouse and etc. Now MS heading down the same path.

Steve Jobs introduced the Mac with a 1984 advertisement, little did people know he was showing his long term plan.

Reply Score: 3

shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

Funny how a NEC monitor, Ancient Dell Keyboard, BenQ HD Projector and Microsoft mouse all work fine on my Apple kit.

I don't have to faff around loading drivers either unlike Windows.

I'm not saying apple is perfect, far from it but I'd really like to know where you got the opinion that non apple devices won't work on Apple kit?

Reply Score: 2

MattPie Member since:
2006-04-18

"Funny how a NEC monitor, Ancient Dell Keyboard, BenQ HD Projector and Microsoft mouse all work fine on my Apple kit.

I don't have to faff around loading drivers either unlike Windows."


You wouldn't have to load drivers for those in Windows either. ;)

Reply Score: 2

shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

Well, my copy of Windows and the searching for drivers it does when I connect the keyboard would seem to disagree with you. YMMV.

Reply Score: 4

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I call bullshit.

Your keyboard is either USB or PS/2 so it will be plug and play anyway.

I have a Bloomberg keyboard in front of me and that worked just fine ... and that is probably much more exotic than anything you own.

Edited 2011-09-21 21:09 UTC

Reply Score: 0

andih Member since:
2010-03-27

I have a Bloomberg keyboard in front of me and that worked just fine ... and that is probably much more exotic than anything you own.

0.o :p

http://xahlee.org/funny/i/mac_win_linux_perceptions-s.jpg
The keyboard in the middle to the right is a bloomberg.

Reply Score: 1

What about free software?
by Anonymous Penguin on Wed 21st Sep 2011 21:52 UTC
Anonymous Penguin
Member since:
2005-07-06

My first comment in this story, so I don't know if anybody has already said something similar.
Windows has *tons* of free software, free as in beer or free as in freedom, or both. That is of course a huge added bonus for MS users, you can run Windows and never have to pay for a program, quite legally.
My experience with OS X, it doesn't have so many (quality) free programs. You are expected to pay even for some little apps which should be part of the OS (example: AppZapper).
So, isn't Microsoft shooting itself in the foot with this policy? They can call themselves lucky only because not too many people are willing to move to Linux (various reasons) or even to OS X (price of hardware).
But even so, Windows 8 can be a huge fiasco, just like Vista. Joe User is not willing to pay for every app. Thus they shouldn't push their luck too hard.

Reply Score: 4

RE: What about free software?
by kristoph on Thu 22nd Sep 2011 05:39 UTC in reply to "What about free software?"
kristoph Member since:
2006-01-01

1) The Mac App Store has several thousand free apps.

2) The Microsoft Metro App Store (or whatever) will have thousands of free apps.

It's possible Microsoft will restrict GPL apps though but there aren't likely to be many GPL apps for Metro so whatever.

(I happen to be in the software development business and so I am not really into free - unless it's part of my business model - and frankly applaud Apple and Microsoft for creating an ecosystem that supports low cost apps.)

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06


(I happen to be in the software development business and so I am not really into free - unless it's part of my business model - and frankly applaud Apple and Microsoft for creating an ecosystem that supports low cost apps.)


You do it for a living and, to a point, I can understand your point of view.
I don't want to start the age old free vs. paid argument all over again, only a simple consideration: if Joe User had to pay for every app he needs, that would cost him more than his computer + OS.
Many would simply give up or resort to piracy.

Reply Score: 2